Friday, February 13, 2009

Open Thread: #417 No Exit

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Episode 417: No Exit
Written by Ryan Mottesheard
Directed by Gwyneth Horder-Payton

Mo Ryan of the Chicago Tribune reports:

After the episode airs tonight, I will post my thoughts on "No Exit." I'll also post some of the burning questions that I was left with after the episode ended.

But here's where you come in -- I'd like to hear your burning questions too.

Ryan Mottesheard, a writer for "Battlestar Galactica," and Jane Espenson, a co-executive producer on the Sci Fi show, have kindly agreed to answer our questions about "No Exit." I will post that interview Sunday evening.

Here's how it will work. Once my "No Exit" post is up, you may leave your questions in the comment area on that post. It would help if you put your questions in the first part of your comment, preceded by the word "QUESTION" in all caps.

You may also email your questions to me at my Tribune email address, Please put the words "Battlestar question" in the subject line, if you would be so kind.

So, after you watch No Exit, head over to The Watcher to leave your questions there.

Photos via dryope


Hieu Le Bui said...

OMG, Starbuck is Danny because she's the artist that Ellen was talking about. Kinda ironic that Danny is a he and Starbuck is a she like RDM made her.

Devin de Gruyl said...

No spoilers in my post here, but I would like to say that you WILL want to watch this one multiple times to wrap your brain around it all. There is a LOT of stuff being infodumped, probably more than most people can properly digest in a single viewing.

Brent said...

It would seem that the reference to Danny's programming being corrupted must have meant that Cavil turned him into a woman (Starbuck). That goes a long way toward explaining why Starbuck is so physically aggresive and oversexed.

evilcat said...

Yeah, I spent as much time on the edge of my seat trying to take it all in as I did last week from the tension!

All my speculation was wrong. Kudos to RDM and crew for throwing such a curve-ball and yet still stringing everything together... well, I think they did... Didn't they?

Anonymous said...

I don't see how Starbuck needs to have been male at one point. Sometimes, women are just as aggressive and oversexed as your stereotypical male.

Brent said...


Apparently you didn't watch the show too closely. As Huiu said, Starbuck is the artist and she did die and come back. Humans can't do that.

Anonymous said...

I guess that Dirk Benedict can back off now knowing that Starbuck was a guy before she was a girl.

In her own Voice said...

anyone got a grip on the story we just heard tonight about the final five uploading from earth, traveling to warn "the others" on -blank- and it took them so long to get there, they'd already blown up the place. Was that it?

But then also, once they got out there, somewhere--on a colony, they helped the Centurions (those are the metal boys,right?) make themselves into "skin-jobs". And that's what "John" was so pi***d about.

So at some point, he suffocated them (according to Anders stream of consciousness/visions)and when they were resurrecting, somehow took their memories, programmed them and sent them to infiltrate with the humans--where? Caprica?

Gods, wish there were somewhere to go and put it all together!

genna said...

My friend suggested that perhaps Daniel is Starbuck's dad. He was an artist, too, specifically a piano player. Though, one might ask, are Kara's finger fractures and memories of her mother real? I don't know if there is any proof of Socrata Thrace independent of Kara's memories.

Anonymous said...

I bet everything, Gaius Balter is gonna end up being "Daniel". Theyve been saying he is special since the miniseries.

Hieu Le Bui said...

Baltar is not Danny, he's more of a wierdo! LOL

In her own Voice said...

So the final five (and more) were living on earth among the humans and there were cylon ships in orbit when the cylons nuked the earth.

Were they the only cylons who had human bodies? Who made them? Who are one, two, and three?

crone51 said...

Holy Exposition , Batman!

Grant Gould said...

Mucho confusing episode... Need to watch again... o.O

Eric H said...

OMG Oedipal Robots! "John" wants to kill his parents....Caprica 6 is having a baby with her father...good times, good times.

There is almost certainly some kind of connection between Starbuck and Danny. When Ellen is describing him to Boomer and "John," she's looking at the mandala painting that Starbuck has been obsessed with since she was a child. Whether she is a version of the Seven/Daniel model, a descendent, or something else is unclear. But I took that as a huge clue.

Now please pardon me while I to rewatch this about 5 times to figure the rest out.

Patrick said...

In the clues, we see a picture of Starbuck sitting at a piano with a guy. Could that be her father?

evilcat said...

In Her Own Voice >>

As I understood it, the Cylons (i.e. the 13 tribe) left Kobol and founded the 13th Colony, which they names 'Earth'. Previously, they had relied on the technology of transference of brain patterns to continue their lineage.

Eventually they were able to procreate naturally, and did so until the secret of transference was lost to them. (It's not clear whether this ability is in all humans or just the 13th Tribe)

In the meantime they developed Centurions to do their bidding, pissed them off and this lead to the inevitable (all this has happened before and it will happen again).

Ellen and her team of five scientists recreated the ability and had a ship in orbit around 'Earth' waiting for the apocalypse to come. This was the first Resurrection Ship. They resurrected and decided to travel back to the colonies to warn the Colonials to warn their robot Centurions well.

They didn't have FTL and arrived slap-bang in the middle of Cylon War #1. The Centurions were attempting to become flesh and bone, experimenting as we saw in Razor. These all failed, giving only the Hybrids.

The Final Five bargained with the Centurions - we'll create your skin jobs if you leave the humans alone. The Armistice begins.

The Final Five design and build skin jobs - Cavil/John first, then Daniel. John gets jealous of Daniel and aborts his line by interfering with the amniotic fluid in his goo bath. Daniel is boxed by John.

John's resentment grows and at some point he kills the Five, locking them away and keeping them secret when they resurrect. He programs his brothers and sisters never to question the nature of the Five, all the while keeping the knowledge for himself.

He takes this one further and sends the Five out to the humans, having rewired their memories (he happily did this to the Raiders and Centurions too, remember? A dab hand with the skalpel). In order to show them true suffering, he then instigates the attack on the Colonies and wipes out most of the human race.

Since Ellen dies in the attacks, he sends her out again to reunite with the fleet. He takes great pleasure in hurting them over the years, taking Saul's eye, taunting Tyrol over his fears of being a Cylon, chasing Anders all over Caprica...

So essentially it all comes down to John and his mommy issues.
We still have not seen model #7 for definite, but the fact that 6 claimed there to be 12 models was based on the fact that Daniel was gone before the rest of the models were created.

Anonymous said...

It's Cylon “inventor” Daniel Greystone.

crone51 said...

Oh! Daniel Greystone!

Good catch. Or is that, in fact, a spoiler? And if so then may I be the first to say CURSE YOU!

Anonymous said...

Did the John/Daniel thing remind anyone else of Cain and Abel?

Anonymous said...

Interesting thought, but it can't be Daniel Greystone because the 5 didn't show up until nearly the end of the first Cylon war, well after Greystone had invented or "re-imagined" the Cylon Centurions.

Anonymous said...

"Daniel" cannot be Daniel Graystone. Because they said they arrived to the colonies that were already at war with the Centurians. We already know that Daniel Greystone created the Centurians. Daniel Greystone was the first on the colonies to create centurians. When the Final 5 got there, they negotiated with the centurians to stop the war if they helped them build Skinjobs. Then they created Cavil, then "Daniel". So, it is not the same Daniel. Daniel Greystone was already alive when the Final 5 got there.

Anonymous said...

Yes, and according to some accounts of the script to Razor, as well as the actor, the First Hybrid is Daniel Greystone (though who knows if that's still true, or just something they slipped in before Caprica was greenlit).

Anonymous said...

GO BACK AND WATCH. ANDERS ALMOST EXPLAINED HEAD SIX AND OTHER HEAD CHARACTERS! Right before they take him to surgery, he says Ellen would see a guy, and Saul would see a man that no one else could see. All of the 5 would see people that no one else could see. They were there to warn them about the apocalypse. I barelly missed it.

Anonymous said...


It might be time for you to re-watch season 2. Particularly Valley of Darkness, in which we find out that Kara's FATHER is a mysteriously missing musician.

Theresa said...

I'm rather into the idea of Kara's dad being a cylon, therefore making Kara the first Human/Cylon offshoot.

If her fingers showed evidence of having been broken BEFORE we experienced the whole dead/earth/found her own body story arc - would her fingers still show the evidence of being broken? Did she wake up on Earth after dying because there is still the resurrection technology out there?

But then how did her viper get back??

I can't wish the next episode to come too soon, because it's going to be all over before we know it.

In her own Voice said...

evilcat, thanks so much! that really helps me putting it all together..

gods, I've watched this all the way through, can't believe I still have such blank spots in putting it together. maybe it would help to do some research and maybe hang around here some more!

Kate said...

I will *definitely* have to re-watch this one to figure it all out. I really wonder if/how this "Daniel" is going to play into the rest of the series. As so many of you guys have said, there has got to be a Starbuck connection...Theresa, that was a really interesting idea about Starbuck being the first human/cylon offshoot.

Also wondering--does anyone have any info on the Canadian preview for next week? They've been SO different these last few weeks that I'm just curious what other info it might reveal! Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Holy Frak!!!

Okay, now that I got that out of my system....

I thought it was Daniel Graystone too. I think it's entirely possible that the Graystone in the prequel series (Eric Stoltz) was already a Cylon incarnation. It's also possible that the daugher he was trying to save was Starbuck. And it's also possible that if the "head characters" are indeed the visions sent to warn the Final Five about the apocalypse, that Baltar's role may yet be as significant as many of us have thought since the beginning.

Of course, my name is Daniel, and there are many of us out there....

ZeroCorpse said...

1. Starbuck is a clone. Remember when she was captured and they did experiments on her on Caprica? The original Starbuck died, and the clone took her place (and her memories). Sort of like using resurrection technology on a human...

2. "Cylon Earth" is OUR Earth. We're supposed to be Cylons, based on the original humans from the colonies. Most of us consider ourselves human and don't know our ancient past, since we procreate naturally and don't have any real humans around to compare ourselves to. We're wonders of biomechanical engineering... But the Five were aware of what they were and where they came from, and prepared for what was coming.

3. Unless he turns out to be Baltar, we won't see Daniel on BSG.

Grant Gould said...

I enjoyed the episode (and understood what the hell they were talking about) much more the second time around. Loved the Ellen scenes especially.

My biggest disappointment with the ep is that we didn't get any closure regarding what happened to the other mutineers... What happened to Racetrack, Seelix, etc.?? :/

General Boy said...

After the laborious exposition session that was this episode (thank the One True God that Boomer was in the room so these conversations could legitimately take place), I'm convinced Daniel is Starbuck. I'll do a Wiki search on the names to see if there are any mythological links.

The Final Five really traveled through space for 2,000 years to warn the colonists to be nice to the cylons that they will eventually create or else they will rise up and kill them just like they killed the skinjobs on Earth? Really? Really? I hope that idea is more fleshed out in future episodes, because that one is a little hard to swallow. How about, "After the apocalypse, we realized that cylons and humans must once more unite. We were the last of our kind. We faced extinction. We reached across the heavens to be with our creators. We traveled space to reunite with humans." I don't know; it ties into the whole "family/village" them of the show, no?

I liked Anders' free-associating. It reminded me of the "aphasia" of the hybrids. I also like seeing Kara and Sam together like this. Sam, as I have stated before, is a good man.

I would like to say that I feel vindicated that here, in previous threads, I predicted that Boomer and Tyrol would somehow be reconnected. It just seemed like a gaping hole that needed to be closed. It's the first real human/cylon rift that occurs in the series, and it makes sense to return to the relationship as a motif. There is foreshadowing of this in tonight's episode when Boomer asks who she could love, and then there is a quick cut to Tyrol. There was also foreshadowing during Tyrol's drunken rant in the bar with Adama when he snarls, "You find out the woman you love is a cylon!" I always get these things wrong. Well, actually, I still might.

So, who switched the 5 (well, 4) back on with Dylan? If Starbuck is Daniel, why didn't she get the second signal (remember, she was dead during the first transmission). Maybe it has something to do with her earlier demise as Daniel.

Why the hell would Cavil (John) send the 5 to the colonies? Just box them and bring them out as you need them - just like you did with D'Anna. Why all the drama? I mean, really? This is another weak point that really needs to be fortified in future episodes. That just seems silly: "So you can get an up-close and personal look at them" or something like that was his excuse. Not very compelling.

Finally, Baltar is still such a pivotal character (see "Opera House"). I'm eager to see where he falls in all of this.

Oh! I liked the new opening.

Logan Gawain said...

It's always dicy to do an episode with so much exposition to pack into one hour, but I think they pulled it off.

Dean Stockwell and Kate Vernon are just spectacular together. Great stuff.

Logan Gawain said...

@General Boy... Sam said they traveled near the speed of light for those 2000 years, so on board the ship they traveled on timed passed slowly. So, from their perspective it didn't take 2000 years. Just by the time they arrived at the Colonlies 2000 years had passed.

Maybe Einstein was a Cylon.

taterman said...

wasn't it great the whole way the galactica repair plan mirrored roslin's cancer cure? with roslin, cylon (= machine) technology rebuilt her, but with galactica, organic (= human) technology will repair it (perhaps only temporarily).

this brings up a question about the definition of what really is "cylon". is "cylon" a particular kind of machine technology? or just a machine in general? if it's the latter, then, by definition, galactica, being a machine, is in some sense cylon. so then if we start thinking of all machines as cylons, then starbuck's viper resurrection is exactly like the skinjob resurrection.

interesting. complicated.

taterman said...

... and i can't wait see the goo-bath the viper was reborn in.

Anonymous said...

Anyone notice the illuminati icon on Adama's desk in the photo above? Foreshadowing of something or misdirection? or RDM conspiracy?! *gasp!

Anonymous said...

And speaking of symbolism I rather enjoyed Ellen offering Boomer an apple as she tried to get her to think independantly of Cavil. Ironic considering Ellen's the one who believes in God.

Anonymous said...

Is galatica turning into the next galleon?

Anonymous said...

What i found interesting is that the resurrection technology originated from Kobol. It seems likely that the Gods they worshipped could in fact be similarly people who used it to gain immortal life, and could similarly created humans in the same way as the cylons (would mean that cylons and humans mean the same, and evolution's whacked :)

But they still haven't explained what's behind the virtual people and the visions. I think for Starbuck, if Daniel is a part of her then its possible he was Leoben guiding her to resurrection. Another is that there is a possible link between the FTL drives and the visions, which could explain how the hybrids arrived that way. I've got no idea about virtual six though: either Baltar somehow resurrected, or she's never going to be explained and is some act of God.

Eric H said...

Anders' hints about the head characters certainly do cast new suspicion that Baltar is some kind of cylon (or that everyone is, mebbe). Since the beginning we've long wondered how exactly he survived a direct nuclear hit with no more protection than Caprica Six's body.

Teri's Blog said...

I like the new opening too.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous' comment about Anders alluding to the Head-Six, Head-Baltar thing. I think he's got very good point:

"Back on Earth the warning signs that we got it looked different, I saw a woman. Tory you saw a man. Funny no one else could see them. (nurse interrupts making it hard to hear the last bit...) Galen, you though you had a *chip* in your (head?)!"

This is TOTALLY it.

Anonymous said...

It was a TERRIBLE episode of BattleStar Galactica.

But it was a great episode of General Hospital.

I am hanging in there for the final ups and downs of the roller coaster, hoping they can keep the lightning in the bottle, but I think it may have escaped and all we have left is an ant in a mayonnaise jar.

(hope I'm wrong, I love the show... I wish everything made more sense though. It seems all hurriedly written like someone trying to finish an exam. I am also reminded of a famous New Yorker cartoon where a scientist stands in front of a blackboard covered in dense equations and at the very end, it states in small font "and then a miracle occured."

suicideblondjay said...

i dunno about this one, i was kind of disappointed, felt like this episode highlighted many of the flaws in the show's narrative and confused some of the characters' motives up to this point, some of it seemed a little bit too convenient like the writer where trying to make sense of their jumbled storytelling so far, it just didn't feel natural. hate to sound like a broken record but this show made a mistake going too mystical, the final five cylons should have been regular skin jobs like the other seven (now eight? WTF). what this show lacked was a clear direction from the beginning, but instead RDM and the writers decided to make it up as they went along, i think the show's narrative is suffering as a result of that approach...

Anonymous said...

"Right before they take him to surgery, he says Ellen would see a guy, and Saul would see a man that no one else could see.

...which is why both of them took to drink, perhaps.

General Boy said...

@ Logan Gawain

I should have been more clear in my post. The passage of time is clear to me. My point was that the motivation of the Final Five to head back to the colonies seems weak to me. I should watch the episode again for fact-checking, but I understood it to be that they wanted to find the colonists to warn them to be nice to cylons. Like a PSA. I don't know - does anyone else have any thoughts to share on this particular point in the show?

Anonymous said...

I believe we won't see Daniel, but that Daniel was Starbuck's father. I think back to when she was on Caprica and they showed her paintings. She has always been deemed "special", and I think that's because she was the first Cylon/human hybrid on the colonies. I liked that they brought up the "head" entities...I wonder if they could be the LOK warning their children since this has all happened before and will happend again?

Sam J. Miller said...


i also felt like it seemed a little weak, that their motivation to head back to the Colonies was to warn the human colonists to be nice to their cylons. of course, the fact that their whole civilization had been destroyed was probably ALSO a factor... it also feeds back into the "all of this has happened before..." thingie; like the Final Five were ALSO refugees fleeing from a destroyed homeworld, heading back to a mythological place they'd never been to...

Is there consensus on whether the holocaust on Earth happened because their centurions rose up?

Logan Gawain said...

Yeah, Sam, I think seeking other people had to be a simple motivation. They had to be a pretty lonely group of 5 people. Where else would they or could they go, but to try to find the civilizations on the 12 colonies and try to rebuild their lives there.

That probably was also part of their own motivation to create the Cylon skinjobs, as an attempt to continue their own species of Cylon, though now with the monotheism of the centurions. Clearly Ellen views them as her own children.

Anonymous said...

From TV Guide...Starbuck meets a musician named Slick.

Anonymous said...

My goodness. Kate Vernon stood her ground this week. It's great to have her back... She more than stepped up to the plate. Again, just shows the acting calibre which Battlestar has. It was a thrilling ride and i can't wait for the next '5' episodes.

General Boy said...

OK. Question:

Why did Starbuck give such an ominous turn of the head and look to the monitor when the surgeon said, "He has a remarkably clear image"? What did she see?

Also, when Ellen asks if John has taught Boomer about the swirl, was she talking about this?

Greg said...

I watched it twice because there was so much in there...and again, I get the impression that they've left almost too much out, so a lot of things dont make as much sense until you see the deleted scenes (but I shan't disclose what I know).

However, this episode more or less confirmed my theory, that the clankers from Cylon War 1 could NOT have evolved so quickly on their own AND also allow for the dumping of the FF into the human population.

That said, the folks who populated "earth" really should not be called "cylons" since they were NOT a direct evolution of the clankers on Caprica, et al. They are a distinct group of humans from Kobol who simply found a way to reincarnate/download, and are using it (the clankers did n't have that ability).

We also now know why John Cavill is such an asshole. I mean, really, can we box this mofo? Clearly he's insane as are his brothers.

It is also interesting to see how the FF basically built the skinjobs we see today, but not being Gods, they made mistakes with all the models making them a weird combo of human and artificial mistakes.

This also explains how skinjob Cylons would know so much about Kobol et al.

I wonder what will happen to Anders...will he resurrect on the baseship? or is resurrection just plain dead?

Other fun moments: Chief, finding out he lived with Tory "What like roommates?" and seeing how BIG the engine room is when Chief and Adama talked.

overall these are fine, but I really hope they try and make a dvd version that reincorporates some of the material that they're deleting for time because like with Pegasus, it really did help.

Shaggy_SoCal said...

Based on the dialogue, I am assuming that the Daniel line is completely gone.
Sam remembers creating eight, but just hasn't remembered Cavil's treachery.
His memories are coming back in pieces.

It seems that there may have been at least one Daniel model that was fully developed before Cavil destroyed the line. Could that Daniel model have sired a child with a woman called...Socrata Thrace?(In reading the posts, I'm glad I wasn't the only one to pick up on this.)

This is also the second episode where we see Adm. Adama downing prescription pills. Could he be the dying leader mentioned in the Scrolls of Pythia and not Rosilin; or that they collectively are the the dying leader. In a way, Galactica is also dying. That's the trouble with prophecies, they are always open to interpretation.

Eric H said...

Is John Cavil just one copy of the Number One model, or many? Is this petulant criminal mastermind one individual or is it the whole frakkin' line?


1. We know that the skinjobs, or at least the Eights, can download each other's memories and incorporate them into their own identity after a fashion (as Athena did with Boomer, ditto the Eight who helped Helo blow the resurrection hub and admitted to downloading Athena's memories).

2. Despite this, they still function as distinct individuals with free will (Exhibit A: Athena's decision to defect even
though she told Tyrol she has Boomer's memories).

3. Ellen notes several times when Cavil directly messed with the Five in their recent "human" incarnation: Tyrol's confession, Anders' resistance movement, Saul's torture, and of course with her. (BTW at least one of these Cavil copies was airlocked out of range of a resurrection ship, in Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II.)

So: even if we assume every copy of the Cavil model knows what "John" knows from shared memories, does the entire line also act as a collective expression of an individual personality and will? If so, that would seem exceptional vis a vis the other models.


Karen James said...

Here's my one big problem: if the 13th tribe came from Kobol and populated earth, how do you explain the fact that earth has billions of years of fossilized evidence clearly showing human evolutionary development? Shouldn't all that evidence be on Kobol, not Earth?

alex said...

Overall I loved it -- I think the "all this has happened before and will happen again" is just so smart. Isn't creating servants who then revolt against us the mistake that human beings make and will continue to make?

The thing that I can't resolve, though, is that the centurions asked the FF for their help in making skinjobs -- skinjobs who then became the masters of the centurions?? Remember when the rebel cylons removed the free-will inhibitors in the centurions? Is this a flaw in the narrative or something yet to be explained?

Luke Surl said...

@Karen James - I guess we're not on the first cycle here.

Interesting though that there seems to be an understanding of evolution (Tigh's comment about a germ) despite that there can't be millions of years of fossils on the colonies...

crone51 said...

Greg- Jane Espenson pretty much answers your question on Maureen Ryan's site, IIRC ( and I should- having just come from there but my short term memory is ....uh...old).

Of course, I trust nothing these writers tell me.

Sam J Miller said...

does anyone think it's possible that Daniel's consciousness or SOMETHING ultimately became the raiders? When Ellen calls Cavil out on killing Daniel he says something along the lines of "flesh is so weak... something stronger would have been better... metal, maybe?" And we know that the raiders can identify the Final Five (one scanned Anders at the Ionian Nebula), presumably meaning they've seen them... Plus we still don't know where the current model of raiders came from, although we presume that, like the skinjobs and the new-model basestars, they were developed by the centurions with the help of the Final Five...

Anonymous said...

Jane and Ryan's answers are up:

Adam Whitehead said...

"Here's my one big problem: if the 13th tribe came from Kobol and populated earth, how do you explain the fact that earth has billions of years of fossilized evidence clearly showing human evolutionary development? Shouldn't all that evidence be on Kobol, not Earth?"

We haven't seen that in the show. BSG-Universe-Earth might not have the same fossils that real-world-Earth has on it and in the BSG-Universe, Kobol has those fossils on it instead. That's a bit of a cheating answer though.

My guess is that they will never definitively say how long the Cycle of Time has been going on for, so the original origin point of humanity may well have been Earth 50,000 years ago or something, but humanity and their Cylon creations have bounced back and forth between Earth, Kobol and the Colonies so many times since then that they can't tell where they originally came from. The First Hybrid hints at that in RAZOR when he says "All this has happened before and will happen again, and again, and again," ad infinitum until he got blown up.

General Boy said...

Here are some things I can't reconcile in my mind about the BSG mythos.

1. We know that human beings lived with the gods on Kobol, right? They stole the knowledge of creating life from the gods and, presumably, made cylons.

John/Cavil clearly states that the human ancestors crawled out of the ooze or something to that effect in this episode, meaning that humans were created through some process of evolution.

So, where did this evolution take place, and who were these gods on Kobol? We know their names, but these concepts are are mutually exclusive on Kobol, aren't they? You can't have evolution *and* gods on Kobol. Which one is it? It is interesting that it is a cylon who first mentions evolution and not a human being.

In other words, it is part of the BSG universe that human beings biologically evolved and, so, were not created by gods (please, spare me any ID arguments). Is it possible that these gods were descendants from another Earth - our Earth. They went to Kobol with their cylon technology and made their first set of skin jobs (the colonials)? It turn, is it possible that *these* cylons made their own cylons by stealing this knowledge from Earth's ancestors (i.e., human beings; gods), starting the cycle? Could, then, everyone in the show be some sort of artificial being? Am I losing my mind?

The show up to this point has not made clear the creation of the human species. We know they lived among the gods, and we know, per Cavil, they evolved from the ooze.

2. How is it that the scrolls, written by a technologically advanced society, were so primitive? Why all of the metaphors and symbolism? The people who wrote the scrolls were able to travel through space and make cylons. Wouldn't these records be more scientific and precise? It was written for the sake of posterity, right? Wouldn't all the writing be less cryptic? These weren't illiterate farmers and fishermen that were putting this all together, right?

3. Who is this One True God? Does he or she have a name? The Final Five, ostensibly, believe in this being. It turns out that it was they who taught the colonial centurions about Him or Her. Was it their belief in this One True God one of the reasons the original skinjobs left Kobol? How did this myth emerge on Kobol?

I'm done. Thank you for indulging me. It's pretty late now to post on this thread, isn't it?

General Boy said...

Oh! One more thing: I like how Tory, Tyrol, Saul, and Kara light up right before Sam has his seizure. They all light up - just like they did when they appeared as a vision in the temple on the algae planet. Is that a foreshadowing? Is Kara Daniel? Not a Final Five model, sure, but a cylon?

Adam Whitehead said...

The Final Five didn't teach the Cylons about the One True God, the Centurions had already reached that faith by themselves. The reason why is given in CAPRICA.

As for the evolution/creation argument, Cavil's words seem to clash with RDM's, namely that the Lords of Kobol created man, man created the Cylons. Unless the theory that the Lords of Kobol are hyper-advanced humans who genetically engineered a 'new' race of humans who in turn created the Cylons is correct, this implies that the Colonies have a similar religious/scientific argument going on over evolution and creation to that currently taking place in the United States.

If, however, the Lords are real beings and did create the Colonials, that would explain the lack of any ancient fossil evidence on Kobol which in turn would greatly boost the credibility of the Colonial religion (since that lack would 'prove' the Lords created them, especially if they had lost earlier knowledge that they, or the Lords, had come from Earth).

The scrolls are an excellent point. The date of '4,000 years ago' is given in some quarters for the departure of the 13th Tribe (Ellen seems to retcon it to 3,000 years though), but Pythia only created the scrolls 3,600 years ago. My guess is that since Pythia was an Oracle and the two Oracles we have seen in the series speak in riddles, possibly using drugs, that's simply how they chose to interpret their prophecies even though more advanced technology was available.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to watch this about 10 more times too, but a couple of thoughts right off the bat. I thought bringing John Hodgeman on was really gimmicky and disappointing and totally unnecessary. And, secondly, is Gaius the one true God? I have never understood how he survived that blast in his house when Six said "get down".

Ryan said...

Hodgman was a great addition, I loved him.

I was surprised how well the episode held together under the stress of all of that exposition and explanation plunked in there. Can't wait till next week!

Anonymous said...

John/Cavil clearly states that the human ancestors crawled out of the ooze...

Cavil states that Ellen's ancestors didn't crawl up out of the ooze, but I guess that does imply that the first humans did. In any case, it isn't terribly specific, and naturally the atheistic Cavil would never attribute the creation of humanity to gods.

Second, though I don't want to start some religious argument on a Galactica thread, there are in fact religious traditions that allow for both god(s) and evolution . . .

Finally, people in our day write in symbolism and allegory all the time, in newly created religious traditions, the arts, and in political discourse. It shouldn't at all be surprising that an oracle would write that way (especially, as Adam pointed out, if oracles are still around in Galactica's present that speak that way).

Eric H said...

@ Adam W: Very interesting conjecture about the LoK being descended from people of our Earth and creating the colonial human race. That might tidy up a few loose ends, now that I think about it.

@ General Boy: The little Hollywood spotlight moment of the Final Four + Kara was indeed interesting. I thought for a minute we'd hear an announcer in a booming voice say "Kara Thrace...this is your CYLON LIFE!" (cue schmaltzy theme music). But seriously, I love the ambiguity about whether this was just some kind of neurological halo induced by Anders' seizure that immediately followed, or he really was seeing something about Kara's nature.

Mike Bara said...

“Cylon Earth” is NOT our Earth. Go back and watch “revelations,” or sometimes a great notion. There is no indication that it is our Earth. There is no Moon visible at any time (remember Kara’s recon photo?). We don’t see any recognizable continents, nor do we see Saturn, Mars, Jupiter, etc. on the way in. Earth, I suspect, is “the colony” Cavil spoke of. How they are going to get past the matching constellations tho I don’t know.

Rasmus said...

They're going to get past it by having the 13th Tribe's Earth be our Earth in the sense that it is the same place. There's also no indication in those episodes you mention that it is not our Earth. Not showing the moon doesn't mean it isn't there.

It's possible that the Lords of Kobol came from this Earth and thus we are them, as Adam suggests above. But right now I'm leaning toward human life evolving on Kobol, and the LoK mythology having as much basis in reality as our Greek mythology. So basically Earth would exist in Galactica's universe, but it would have a different history from the Earth in our universe.

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