Friday, January 16, 2009

Open Thread: 413 Sometimes A Great Notion

OK folks, here we go with a first for Sitrep this season - we'll put up open threads every Friday for discussion of the episode.

Please read our spoiler policy before you post on the threads.

All 4.5 open threads will be collected in an index that will sit on our blogroll rightside column, for handy access. (Here's the thread for the webisodes, btw.) If you know of other fun sites or forums that are having lively non-spoilery episode discussions, please feel free to post links here as well.

The hiatus is over forever. How are you feeling today?



EPISODE 413: SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION
Writers: David Weddle & Bradley Thompson
Director: Michael Nankin

Hulu embed:

91 comments:

Anonymous said...

omg this is so exciting!! BSG IS BACK, on a WEEKLY basis !!

Its so sad that its back for the last time, but **** it will be an amazing stream of final episodes.

All questions will be answered, all theories satisfied, im sure by the end of BSG, it will make all other shows look like they have been done by a bunch of fans in comparison.

Bring on the final episodes/cylon

Brisotope said...

This is a good idea. I am sure there will be some extra traffic with the open threads, but it won't be as heavy as scifi's forums or even galacticawatercooler.com. So we should be able to have a manageable discussion.

Do you prefer we wait till the episode airs or can we post during commercial breaks Frak Party style?

ProgGrrl said...

Post now...between breaks...2 weeks from now! Just mind our spoiler policy. :)

TighFighter said...

OMG it's finally here!!!

Less than 3 hours to go for the east coasters among us.

Anyone see the clue site today? Check out the last clue. I think we might get to see who the FC is tonight. :o

If you aren't lucky enough to attend a Frak Party tonight come join us over at BSGPilots.com for a post show Frak Party chat. Some us will be watching the show live while in chat.

Just sign up and sign in to join the chat room.

More Info here... http://www.bsgpilots.com/index.php/topic,539.0.html

Or click the link in my name.

yellojkt said...

I don't know if this the right place, but on my blog today I compared BSG with The L-Word. Enjoy.

Anonymous said...

how much longer until we're there? are we there yet? how much longer until we're there? are we there yet? how much longer until we're there? are we there yet? how much longer until we're there? are we there yet? how much longer until we're there? are we there yet? how much longer until we're there? are we there yet? how much longer until we're there? are we there yet? how much longer until we're there? are we there yet?

Anonymous said...

you got yer chocolate in my peanut butter !!!

-- TB said...

3 frakkin' minutes to go! sci-fi hd on the west coast is airing at 7pm pst. can i talk about the ep. early? i guess i'll wait until others start posting. btw, anyone know for sure the correct spelling of "frak?" most go with frak but i have a t-shirt with frack...

and while i'm here, "two fans... and a hybrid" was a brilliant post - thanks!

uberscribbler said...

Act 3 (I think its 3) just ended. I have only this to say:

That's one heck of a way to end an evening out at the bar.

Anonymous said...

Well I guess we've got our last cylon...

Doesn't seem quite right though, guess we'll have to wait and see.

Anonymous said...

I think I'm totally in the minority here, but I was absolutely unimpressed...this episode just didn't bring it...disappointed.

Anonymous said...

*sigh*

So the "final episodes" of BSG are really just a teaser for the new Caprica series? I think we can see where this is going.

Ah well, hopefully there will at least be some good drama along the way.

Kate said...

I thought the 5th was a bit anti-climactic...but I guess after all the build up and anticipation, it was bound to be a little. But there were some definite shocks--the incident with Dee had me shouting "What the Frak?!?" at the TV!

Andric said...

"I think I'm totally in the minority here, but I was absolutely unimpressed...this episode just didn't bring it...disappointed."

I don't think you could be more wrong.

IMO, this was the first episode of season 4 that had much real emotional weight to it.

Anonymous said...

so, we have our final cylon. Is that why D'anna said "Im so sorry?"

Anonymous said...

I have guestions, but I dont want to spoil at all!

Brisotope said...

I don't see that this episode has much to do with Caprica the show. Earth, and the fact that the 13th Tribe were Cylons, won't necessarily connect with the events of the new Caprica series.

Speaking of the 13th tribe. Wow. And Ellen as the Fifth? Didn't expect that but not all that surprised. At least I was right about *one* thing all along...the Final Five reincarnate.

Anonymous said...

brisotope: she said everything was in place and they would be reborn....is it still? will we see her walking around again since new caprica, or was that her last time being reborn?

Anonymous said...

I would rate this episode a solid 8 out of 10.

The good:

The Tigh/Adama scene. Just wonderful...and gut wrenching.

Starbuck and her Viper/Dog Tags

Dee


The bad:

Pulling the cheesy looking cylon "head" out of the sand.

Digging up human (cylon) bones that have been sitting there for 2,000 years and aren't decomposed.

Ellen Tigh

Thankfully the good was much better than the bad. That said, the preview for the next ep. looks regrettably like so many of season 4.0's eps. Filler...just an episode to waste the time and slightly push forward the plot.

Chad @ Sentientmoney.com said...

I only had one thought at the end of the at episode...I wish I had written that. So, sweet.

crone51 said...

We get DNA out of Neanderthal bones that are 30, 000 years old. If bones are buried they become fossilized and last a very long time- they become essentially rock.

I figured it was Ellen. Not a surprise there. Did not see Dualla coming...well done, that- especially the eerie cheeriness before she did the deed which is so often a hallmark of suicides. For a bit I thought perhaps she killed herself because she was remembering that she was a Cylon ( and that fact would be verified by going through her stuff or something )

Eric Helmuth said...

Absolutely loved it. No one should have expected that this episode would do anything but bring more questions and more mysteries, along with a few tantalizing partial answers that beg to be fully explained. It's going to be a fun ride. I'm sure the reveal of the 5th will be off-putting to many but I say, give them a chance to spin it out.

I'm also glad I decided to become a born-again, retroactive spirgin for 4.5. From reading Brad Templeton's (terrific) theories in my spoiler-loving days, I already had pretty much the right idea about the 5th and about Starbuck, but not knowing the details of tonight's episode made the various payoffs and shockers all the more delicious.

Anonymous said...

I have decided to try to be spoiler free for the last episodes....
I dont get the following things though:
1-the final 5: how many times have they been reborn? Did they wait to be reborn until the last 50-60 years or have they just continued to be reborn like teh other skinjobs do?
2-did these final 5 create the other 7 that are popular models?
3-will we see ellen again walking around alive, or was the death on new caprica her final death?
4-kara-wtf?

michelle said...

that was the worst episode ever. that was the best episode ever.

the writing/acting/scenes were excellent. but the direction they went still shocks me..in fact it made me cry.

i just have to keep reminding myself that they know what they're doing..

Sam J. Miller said...

amazing, overwhelming, heartbreaking, confusing, ridiculous, terrifying, perfect

MikeL said...

It's BSG. Enough said.

No one could have gone into this episode knowing what was going to happen...

... and that's exactly how this show should be. It's what they did to us with the "New Caprica" twist x 10!!! I think everything was perfect. BSG has never let me down, and it will be the same way this season...

BRAVO!!!

Anonymous said...

Well, I thought that it was amazing. My sister and I were both struggling not to yell and wake up her husband and son during certain points in the episode. If this is how they're starting 4.5, then we're in for a phenomenal ride!

Mindbender9 said...

This was a dark episode that continued PERFECTLY with last (half) season's finale.

- Dualla. Never saw that coming. I don't understand why, and I can't stand that a wonderfully strong female character was ended so quickly. Very unnecessary, but I'm not a producer on this show.

- Earth being a different Earth that what we imagined? I actually thought that it was brilliant. Especially with the flashbacks from Tigh and Chief, which could have happened today. Very interesting, and the two year old spoilers WERE CORRECT... Earth was the Cylon's homeworld.

- I might be alone in this but I thought the fact that Kara discovered her own corpse and eventually built her own burial pyre was fantastic. This is why BSG is the best written show on television, because the ability to twist reality on its head reveals how good the writing is. We are all now wondering "Who the heck is Kara if she's dead?" Brilliantly done.

- And..... Ellen? I thought it was abruptly revealed, but very well done when you consider Tigh's anguish about Ellen's murder and his own discovery of being one of the five final Cylons. I think that the best character of the series has to be Saul Tigh. And since last (half) season's despair (on his part), he now knows that he can reunite with Ellen *somehow*. Again, brilliant.

I think this show is the best written show on television, hands down. Between this and Dexter, I'm very impressed with the quality of everything involved. This will be the greatest finale of any story on television.

TG42 said...

Am I the only one who thinks that the final cylon was NOT revealed in this ep, and that scene if anything DISCOUNTS Ellen as being the fifth?

MissMercyStreet said...

Oh, c'mon. How could it NOT be Ellen?

The previously 'revealed' Cylons were all a part of the New Caprica resistance. The 'Last Supper' promo pic - which Moore was honest about the 12th not being pictured - showed an empty seat next to Tigh. Her introduction into the series - even if it was something the writers pulled out of their collective asses - was always questionable, and Baltar sabotaged her 'test'.

Ellen never 'fit in' - other than being Tigh's bizarre soul mate. But that was telling as well.

Have you ever met a couple like Tigh and Ellen? Not Cylons of course - but just two fucked up people that are a textbook example of emotional masochism? They always get back together. They'll tear each other to shreds - but attack anyone who tries to separate them.

It makes sense.

And Dee - Jesus Christ, I knew it was coming because of the spoiler pics leaked yesterday - but that was brutal. My husband - who hates spoilers - freaked out.

MissMercyStreet said...

Oh, and FRAK LEOBEN.

"I love you. I love you. You're special. You have a destiny. You are special, Kara Thrace. I love you. I built a dollhouse for you and me to be happy together. Look! A child! Our child! You will hold me in your arms - you will embrace me - and tell me you love me. I've seen it. I love you Kara Thrace."

(Kara is suddenly VERY special.)

(((Leoben FLEES)))

Maybe the Cylon race was nuked because they act like deadbeat boyfriends.

(I've been fanficing Leoben/Kara since Season 1 - yeah, I DO take this stuff personally.)

Grant Gould said...

I posted my review over in the BSG Blog thread, but I wanted to give the super-short version here.. LOVED IT. Absolutely heart-breaking and amazing, and easily in my top 10 episodes of the entire series. I, for one, am insanely happy about the 5th cylon reveal..... And I am insanely depressed about the loss of one of my favorite BSG ladies..

Kudos, BSG. And welcome back.

Matty G said...

I was really satisfied by the reveal of Ellen as the final cylon - but mainly because I've been thinking about this for a year and just 2 days ago I suddenly thought I had figured it out - so i was thrilled to be right.

This is what brought me to the conclusion that Ellen was the final cylon, which I don't think anyone has mentioned here:

1. I actually suspected her a while back when I was trying to see if I could come up with a theory. We'd been led to believe that the final cylon was someone who had been around from "the very beginning." With that in mind, I re-watched the mini-series one day and paid close attention to every character represented in those episodes. And there is a scene where Saul Tigh burns his cigarette through the photo of Ellen, and it burns right through her right eye, making it glow red. I thought at the time that meant something!

2. When Saul poisoned her on New Caprica, I dismissed her as an option because I really thought that the final five couldn't regenerate. But then I started thinking, everyone had abandoned New Caprica and Saul left her for dead. Everyone took off - we don't know for sure if she died. We have no confirmation of that.

3. Then, of course the Last Supper photo - with the empty seat right next to Saul. Who else would belong at his side? And the fact that the missing figure would be the Judas character - well, that fits Ellen to a tee.

Maybe Ellen is still alive on New Caprica. Or maybe there were other ships left there - could she pilot one? Will the fleet return to New Caprica?

J-man said...

Seems like there is a frakload more tv in 1 hour of BSG than in 1 hour of any other show...

ProgGrrl said...

@J-Man: WORD.

Heartbreaking, devastating, scary, mystifying.

Firstly: THE 2000-YEAR-OLD CYLON BONES? That, for me, was the most fascinating new thing.

2nd most fascinating: how quickly Leoben abandons Kara here.

RIP, Dualla.

Laura Roslin: don't give up honey!

That shot of Kara watching her own corpse burn was brilliant. Tigh's memory at the end, disturbing.

A crackling great beginning...

James Jacob said...

Woke up early here in the UK to watch it and OMG! Been a long time coming back to our screens, but what a cracking way to start the beginning of the end.

Did not see Dualla coming at all! Ask for Starbuck, and erm, Starbuck, there must be a whole load more to be revealed about this.

Lastly, I think there MUST be another twist about the whole 13th tribe 'has happened befero, will happen again' idea... Still can't quite get my head around it all

Aspasia said...

Oh Dee!

I read the spoilers early in the evening after the initial broadcast (I don't have cable. Couldn't wait.). I knew to expect the suicide but still...gods damn that was harsh. I still have tears in my eyes after watching the episode on SciFi just now. They will show a funeral, right? Not just drop it? I guess we can't be too surprised at sudden suicides in-verse because, quite honestly, most Colonials are feeling hopeless.

Civilization, destroyed. Run for a year. Settle on a 'nice' planet in relative peace for another year. Enemies return and brutal four month occupation. Run again for another year. Make it to the end destination to find that...it's been destroyed. Now no destination in sight. Shit, a bullet would look pretty good to me at that point too.

Ellen. Heh. She was on my short list of candidates. I liked the Dylan Four's (or are they the Anders Four now? heh) flashbacks to their previous lives on Earth.

Thanks for a nice Friday night mindfrak Ron Moore, et al. Good job!

Freek said...

Whoa, I was suspecting Ellen to be a Cylon ever since her "test" by Baltar back in Season 1. She was on top of my shortlist of the final Cylons ever since Season 3.

SO exiting to be right.

I can't feel but that time travel is involved. How come the 13th Tribe is Cylon? Didn't the 12 colonies create them thousands of years later?

How did the final 5 get to the Colonies and escape the nukes? Did they download or time travel into the future? (or both!)

What is Starbuck? Is she a Cylon of some sort? Did she crash on the planet in the past, did they revive her and send her back? Is she the harbinger of dead for the 13th tribe, causing the nuclear war?

Susan Getgood said...

Great beginning. Loved how Saul, the usual drunk, was the voice of reason and got Adama out of his alcoholic fog.

Interesting to see where they take the Ellen bit, and how they tie it together about all of the F5.

IMO Leoben and Dee were odd parallels in the ep, vis Apollo and Starbuck. Leoben is with Kara much of the ep, and Dee with Lee, and then bam. Leoben abandons Starbuck, Dee kills herself. It will be interesting to see how the Starbuck reveal plays out.

evil:cat said...

Going by the Cyclical history idea ('all this has happened before... all this will happen again'),perhaps this is Earth according to the prophecies... but not the Earth. It is, after all, the 13th tribe. So where did the tribes come from? Is there another Earth to be found, where the previous exodus occurred?

As for the time travel idea... Crossed my mind. I don't think Ron Moore would go that route after all those years on Star Trek where Brannon Braga would just throw in a time travel plot for two episodes... but who knows?

Kara... I'm thinking ships of light, or at least a new take on them. Bring back Count Ibis :) Perhaps that's why Leoben got scared? We know Cylons have a similar mythology to Colonials, but maybe there's more to be told...

Regeneration of the final five... The less advanced, seven Cylon models are immediately reborn but can be boxed. There are multiple models. What if the final five can only have one instance per model at any one time? And if they can wipe their memories (they also lack the collective consciousness of the primary seven models)... perhaps they can choose to stay dormant rather than regenerate immediately. Perhaps, if there's only one at a time, they could have spent several lifetimes in other areas of the universe, doing something else?

Regardless of all this speculation, this episode was a triumph. Loads of questions and some emotionally satisfying moments. I prefer Olmos when he's simply inhabiting one of his 256 levels of silent dissatisfaction, rather than his crying despair. I dreaded the idea of a return to the Lee/Dee/Kara/Anders quadrangle (how soon was that thought killed in my mind?).

As a show ending (which it might have been, being the last episode filmed before the strike), this would have been equal parts satisfying and infuriating: it was more open and happy than I expected, since (a) it didn't just stop dead on dead Earth, but had them leave for a new destination, and (b) it gave Tigh the happy ending he's deserved for a season and a half.

In fact, that ending really uplifted me... all his guilt, shame, confliction... lifted in one vision, with the knowledge that he will see Ellen again. Tigh got the happy ending, and that hint would have been as good a way to end the show as an irradiated Earth.

Solid 8 out of 10. Bring on 4.12!

DarthMcWord said...

My two cents:

No time travel. Like evil:cat said, Ron Moore wouldnt throw that at us. Its Ron Moore, not B&B. As for my theory, I think that basically what happens is that the two races (humans and cylons)swich places every cycle. For example, the nuclear war on Earth was caused by the colonials, who were the evolution of the cylons created on Earth. They left and did there little thing with Kobol and the Colonies. Then they created cylons, who were like their creators from Earth, and their creation destroyed them. And so the cycle continues. Just my theory. I sort of based it off something (I think) the hybrid said to Kendra Shaw in Razor about how all this will happen again, but their roles will be switched. I can't wait for the rest of the episodes, last night was SO good.

As for all of the talk about stuff from the first series, I don't see it coming. Ron Moore always talks about creating something new and different, and even though this BSG is based on the old one (obviously), they are not nearly the same show. I think Ron will make an ending entirely his own.

genna said...

I have successfully gotten my parents sucked into BSG; my yelling and surprise throughout the episode probably helped. Never liked Dee but her suicide was really upsetting. I didn't think the theories about Kara finding her own body and Viper would be true, either because really, how often are TV/film theories proven right? (I had insane theories about the last Pirates of the Caribbean. :/ ) A few things I wanted to throw out there:

Someone mentioned D'Anna's "I'm so sorry" to one of the Five earlier. I don't think that is directed at the final cylon. I think it's directed at Anders.

Also, the Judas is missing from the Last Supper photo, which was released for the beginning of Season 4. Do we know for sure that the final cylon goes there? I think Tory is quite the Judas, and her absence from the photo is quite conspicuous.

Random, but when Kara came back, were her dog tags/ring missing? Or does she now have two? & are we all cylons in the BSG-verse?

michelle said...

darth mcword..i like your theory..it fits..

Gilraen said...

@Genna: I think Kara has an extra set of tags now.

What a great show. And with so much packed in. Dee, the Adama/Tigh face-off, Earth is for Cylons, appearently, even Roslin's small book burning...everyone rocked it.

Ellen makes sense as the fifth (not the least because I picked her in our pool) and it'll be interesting to see when and where she reappears.

Kate said...

In response to Genna... "Random, but when Kara came back, were her dog tags/ring missing? Or does she now have two? "

If I'm remembering correctly, she DID have her dog tags/ring at the beginning of this season (4.0). So apparently now she does have two copies...who made the second set?!? Who/what is she? RDM, you've got some 'splaining to do! :)

ProgGrrl said...

I agree w/Gilraen about Kara's tags.

What do you guys think Ellen meant that "everything's all set" for them to be reborn? And if everyone on the planet died that day...how many of them were reborn? Just five?

As mentioned above somewhere...I figure it will never pan out to mean anything, but now I really do wonder which of the five D'Anna apologized to. Must've been Tigh, right? Because of how they treated him on New Caprica?

ProgGrrl said...

One other thought this morning before I head out to the auction... the fox story. And how it ties to the final scene of the show.

This is why I watch BSG. Not to find out who shot JR, but for this.

(And for the look on Dee's face, just before.)

Kate said...

@ ProgGrrl: In Maureen Ryan's awesome article that she posted last night, she asked RDM the same thing--about who D'Anna was apologizing to.

Here's what he said: "When we wrote the line, we didn’t have a clear intention, but later, when we’d decided [on all the Cylons], I think the feeling was, that was Ellen. "

g0m3rpyl3 said...

Great to see the show back, if only for 10 eps.

Was an emotional return, with so much going on with story and characters we've grown to love.

I will only say the the reveal was somewhat underwhelming, however, RDM will explain this to the hilt, of this I have no doubt.

I love this blog and enjoy reading everyone's comments..keep up the good work...........

So Say We All!

deltaecho said...

I liked it. The human/cylon "leapfrog" cycle seems reasonable, though the fact that it's occurred so quickly to everyone suggests it may be _too_ easy. We'll see.

I'm also in agreement with evilcat that RDM, after all his trekkin, may not be eager to throw time travel into the mix. But I can't figure another way to explain the starbucks: she wormholed to the old planet, crashed n' burned, and the great cylon civilization engineered a new buck and viper to return to her time with some memory implant of the old civilization.

Dee's death wasn't unexpected but it was set up very nicely. Beautifully, in fact. This group of writers is terrific at creating WTF moments. Taking her from the despair of the beach to that kiss with the former Prez--I love it.

The part that really gets me is how Leoben bailed on bucky. It was WEIRD given the time BSG has put into developing that relationship. I really hope they continue with that story. If I'm just supposed to infer that he gave up because he realized one prophesy/feeling was bogus and the hybrid's prophecy was right...well, that blows. Leoben is one of my favs, and if I don't get more story there I will be disappointed.

A great starting episode. Gets the stupid "one will be revealed" out of the way and sets up the bigger "where do they go from here?" Can't wait for next week.

suicideblondjay said...

all of this has happened before and will happen again! humans created cylons , they rebelled they evolved and nearly wiped out humanity. the survivors set out to search for a mythical planet called Kobol. they suffered many casualties along the way because of the war with the cylons. the cylons had a civil war and the rebels made an alliance with the humans.defeated the evil cylons, eventually found kobol, divided into 13 tribes and lived in peace with one another until the planet could not sustain life anymore. so the 12 human tribes and the one cylon tribe went their own way. eventually both human and cylon tribes forgot about their history and fact became myth. fast forward 2,000 years the earth cylons maybe not aware they are cylons anymore create robot cylons that obliterate the earth. using resurrection technology created by 5 scientists (tigh,tyrol,tory, ellen and anders) these five cylons set out to search for their long lost Kobol "brothers". fast forward 1,000 years the resurrected cylons live in the 12 colonies, but every time they resurrect their memories get wiped and they have to start over. the 12 colony humans create cylon robots that rebel and well you know the rest of the story...

i know it doesn't explain "everything" (starbuck,the "head" characters, God) but that i will leave that to ron moore since they are questions of a more metaphysical nature and my theory is mostly of a physical nature

Eric said...

@ProgGrrl: Ellen's "everything's all set" hints strongly at some kind of master plan for the survival of the race on the part of the final five. Perhaps over time the plan evolved to a cycle of destruction and rebirth, with the Five guiding the plan in their various incarnations by interceding in pivotal moments (even if unconsciously). So to me it just reinforces the idea that some entity or entities are pulling the strings behind the curtain.

On another note, I love how last night smashed the widespread assumption that there are only twelve models of artificial beings (i.e. the Cylons) - we get the fifth cylon reveal plus an extra Starbuck. And don't forget the opera house visions that Roslin, Six, and Athena co-experienced in real time. And all the head character experiences....all in all, I think we're being set up to find out that this world is not so neatly divided between "human" and "cylon." Delicious stuff!

Greg said...

this was a real mind bender of an episode. But I think we also saw a hint of how perhaps the reincarnated Final 5, and the skinjobs in general, are an attempt to survive gone horribly wrong.

Think of it - when Ellen was in the rubble she said a "plan was in place" to be reborn. So perhaps Tigh, Ellen, Tory, Anders, et all were part of a group trying to survive a pending holocaust. Maybe they sent out their DNA in space or something with instructions to be reborn upon finding a suitable place, etc.

However, the Cylons (old school models) who were trying to evolve, find these things in space. Their "programming" gets corrupted. They make too many copies. The 5 object to what's going on , the 7 don't care and see a chance for eternal life. Hence the split.

Or maybe not.

either way a great episode. I think too much was placed on the final 5 question but then again that cliffhanger last year wasn't supposed to be a cliffhanger.

Anonymous said...

I need a good explaination about why there are 2 sets of starbuck's dog tags/ring. Where the Frak were the opening credits, they better not keep that up and i dont think ellen is the 5th just like in maelstrom when everyone said starbuck was dead and i called them retarded.

Anonymous said...

The Human race created the Cylons. The Cylons destroyed the human race. Then the Cylons evolved into human-looking "Skinjob" Cylons and created machine-looking Cylons who destroyed their Skinjob masters. And on and on and on over thousands of years... There are no humans left. Only Skinjobs and Toasters.

Eric said...

Oh, to ProgGrll's other question about whether more than the final 5 survived the cataclysm 2k years ago: I'm thinking yes. You'd think they'd find millions or billions of skeletons if no one else escaped (maybe they didn't look, but unlikely). Maybe the fleet will meet up with the 13th tribe out there still....or maybe they'll discover it's them.

narwilliams said...

I loved everything about this episode. Ellen is a fine choice for the final cylon -- I list the reasons here: http://narwilliams.com/blog/

Now my main questions lie with Starbuck. Wormhole? Time Travel? The first Hybrid? 13th Cylon? I found it incredibly interesting how even Leoben freaked out!

Eric said...

About Kara, maybe the beings of light saved her. In the original series they made Apollo appear like he was someone else on the episode Experiment in Terra.
Could they have sent someone else back to Galactica that looked like Kara?

ProgGrrl said...

Per Eric's comment, I want to bring back a theory I read after "Maelstrom" aired, that I still feel may hold some water.

Now that we're much farther along we know some of this theory is incorrect...but some of it...who knows?

That is written by friend of the blog Grant Gould [Grant this is actually the first thing of yours I ever read, back in the day... ;) ]

Luke Surl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Luke Surl said...

Crazy theory:

OK, perhaps ressurection is an essential part of existance. Not just to Cylons but to "humans" as well.

Ressurecting in a tank though is the exception rather than the rule. Call it heaven or whatever, but either by technical or spirtual means (are the two necessarily really exclusive?) there is somewhere people go after they die. All the Cylons did was to put a net up so they don't go all the way. It's why Three could get a glimpse of this afterlife when she killed herself. This afterlife is also that thingy Roslin saw (from the boat in 'Faith')

Kara did truly die in Maelstrom, but the powers that be let her from that place (or maybe she escaped?)

General Boy said...

I'm excited by how far out on a limb this show has gone. So many loose ends need to be tied up in just 9 more episodes.

1. I did not see Ellen coming as the FC at all because, well, she was dead. Wouldn't it have been easier to select a character who was still, you know, alive? I'm not complaining, mind you. I've read some complaints that the discovery that Ellen is the FC was anticlimactic, but look at the narrative possibilities that it creates. So much more exposition needs to take place now in just 9 more episodes because of that choice.

2. Now that Kara has, in the most literal sense, found her true self, I have a strong feeling that we may see Seraphs appear on the show after all. I have no idea how such an arc could be squeezed into the show at this point, but it just makes sense to me. Consider one of my favorite scenes from this episode: Leoben's reaction to Kara's discovery. He was looking, dead in the face, something he could not explain at all. It was chilling. He's mortal, and he was scared. He knows he is dealing with something far greater than he has ever imagined.

Maybe there a confluence shared between ancient cylons and Kara's resurrection?

3. Tyrol needs to come to terms with his cylonity. He has become a complete nihilist. Did you see him shaking his head and smiling as he walked on the Earth's surface, as if to say, "It figures". His life has become a big cosmic joke to him. He's lost - will he stay that way?

I can't help but believe that Boomer will become a part of his life again. It just completes a circle in my mind. Boo if you want. I can't help it. She has been a pivotal character throughout the series. I think she has one more surprise for us. Maybe she will return from the dark side.

4. I must know what happened to Earth right now! The mythology of the show has been one of its most interesting aspects. No human bones at all? The 13th tribe was cylon? I'm not scoffing at it, I'm just getting more nervous as this show pulls me farther and farther out on this limb I was talking about earlier.

What a wonderful show. Finally, was anyone else touched the same way I was when Saul realized that Ellen was the FC? I may need to look at the DVR again, but wasn't he filled with joy? He deserves it.

Out.

ProgGrrl said...

@General Boy: I definitely though Tigh looked excited by the prospect...(and where does that leave poor Cap Six, btw?)

General Boy said...

Good point, ProgGrrl. Though, I've been wondering why Cap 6 and Baltar haven't hooked up again. Am I missing something? Did I mix my cylons?

There is a theme of eternal love in the show, isn't there? Yes, characters go off with other characters at times, but there is an eternal bond between some characters:

Bill & Laura
Saul & Ellen
Lee & Kara
Baltar & Caprica 6
Tyrol & Boomer (I can't let go of this one!"
Etc. & Etc.

Well, maybe not. Consider it. Saul must have his Ellen, and Cap 6 will be a casualty of love. Imagine if she and Baltar got back together. They've both changed. They're both wiser, sympathetic, and loving beings. She does love Baltar ("I fell in love with a human man" - such a poetic line).

Yet another loose end that needs to be tied.

Let me end by imparting a bit of wisdom to whomever may be reading this. If you are faced with some sort of crisis at work, don't offer "D'Anna will back down if you threaten to flush meeeee out an airlock!" as a solution. Unless the crisis involves an airlock and hostages.

Kevin said...

What if the real message of the formerly Cylon-inhabited earth is that there are no humans, that everyone is a Cylon, and that there is no real distinction between humans and Cylons.

marcinko said...

A few thoughts:

Dualla's reaction was the first beyond shock and disbelief. She's always been, for me at least, the emotional barometer of the show: prodding Adama to reunite the fleet at Kobol, for example. So her actions seem quite ominous, especially in light of the state of the graffiti-defaced corridor.

I love it when Baltar actually behaves like a scientist, making himself useful in ways that Dr. Smith never did (ask your parents.:)

What Tyrol saw at the wall, and Tigh saw later, reminds me a wee bit of the old short French sf film "La Jetee," which is well worth 26 min. on YouTube if you're not familiar with it.

I can see I've got to read the Kesey novel.

It's not just television, it's BSG.

Anonymous said...

So let me get this straight ...

Exodus #1 (circa 4,600 years before BSG “BA”)

- Humans evolve on Earth (Gen H1)

- H1 invent Cylons (Gen C1)

- C1 rebels against H1; H1 prevails

- C1 invents Human Form Cylons

- C1 attacks H1; bad things happen

- H1 flees and C1 chases; some C1 stay on or return to Earth

- 4,000 BA – Temple of Five is built en route to Kobol

- 4,000 BA – Lion’s Head probe is set en route to Kobol

- Remaining H1 and C1 reconcile; arrive on Kobol in 4,000 BA; bloodlines mix; becomes H2

Exodus #2 (circa 2,000 BA)

- H2 population grows on Kobol

- Reinvents C2 (with involvement of C1 descendants/survivors)

- C2 rebels against H2; H2 prevails

- C2 reinvents Human Form Cylons

- C2 rebels against H2; bad things happen

- C2 flees to Earth; rediscovers thriving and diverse C1 population

- H2 destroys Earth (as seen on 1/16/09)

- C1/C2 survivors (including the final 5) flee with H2 in pursuit; more bad things happen

- C1/C2 and H2 reconcile; arrive at 12 colonies; bloodlines mix; becomes H3

- Some C1/C2 survivors also settle near Earth at the new home Adama later promises to deliver

Exodus #3 (circa 70 BA to present)

- H3 reinvents C3 (with involvement of C1/C2 descendants/survivors)

- C3 rebels against H3; H3 prevails

- C3 reinvents Human Form Cylons

- C3 rebels against H3; bad things happen

- H3 flees and C3 chases; some C3 stay on or return to 12 colonies

- C1/C2 survivors steal Kara’s ovary for human resurrection technology to level the playing field in re mortality/immortality; Kara dies and is resurrected; C2/C1 survivors collect remains and deposit on Earth and guide Kara back to the fleet to attract H3 to Earth

- H3 arrives at Earth – discovers remains of C1/C2 civilization but fail to dig to pre-C1 H1 remains

- Bad things happen en route to new home Adama delivers – C1/C2 help to stop the cycle

Eric H said...

Do you guys think this is the last we will see of Deanna in the series? Will she really just let herself waste away and die on Earth? That would be such a sad and pointless end, but we know all too well how that can happen on BSG. But I LOVE the Deanna character and thus will greedily grasp at any straws pointing to a return. Anyone?

ProgGrrl said...

@Eric: I am totally, totally worried that D'Anna is staying down there! Unless...this isn't the last we've seen of the planet?

@Anon (1/17 6:41): You really ought to make some charts and graphs to go with that post.

General Boy said...

@ Eric: Listen to the episode with commentary at SciFi.com. Your question about D'Anna is discussed.

walker said...

I'm not as in to the show as some of you, but I've loved every moment of it since the initial pilot!

The Saul Tigh character is fantastic - there is so much more developed in him than the other characters.

My questions coming out of this? If Ellen is the one then what is Kara?

A clue is that Leoben bails as soon as he realises that there has been two Karas. He knows what Kara is, so I would guess that Kara is an older generation Cylon or some older hybrid human Cylon from Earth past, and there is a history between newer and older cylons.

Kara says the beacon she is tracking ship has been running for a long time and is weak and flat. The body is decomposed. A long long time has passed. There is time travel somewhere even if it is only new Kara who has done it!!

Anonymous said...

I find Ellen Tigh to be a very unsatisfying cylon. Sorry. I do like that Starbuck thinks she's a cylon and she may well be wrong, and LOVED Leoben's reaction.

Sort of neutral about Dee. They hardly gave her anything to do besides fall in love with Billy & then Lee, then kill her. I feel like I didn't get to know her enough to really care about her death.

Just before the epi aired I asked the husband who he thought the final cylon is, and he said, "I don't care, it's not about the FC, it's about who dies when, and how." He's a smart man, my husband.

Eric H said...

@GeneralBoy: thanks, I checked out the commentary....sigh. RDM seemed pretty clear that they only got Lucy Lawless for one last day to shoot this episode. Well, I suppose we had better get used to losing people as all this winds down. We've been amply warned by RDM, EJO and others.

General Boy said...

@ Eric H.

Yeah, I was disappointed, too. I like D'Anna a lot. She would have been the fulcrum that balanced the two cylon factions. Now that she's gone, the rebel cylons will be even more separated from the others. Although, this may be a good thing.

During the episode, when Saul sits down next to D'Anna at the end, I was waiting for him to ask, "So, while we're just sitting here, quietly, doing nothing special, just looking out to the ocean, can I ask you a question? Who's the Fifth?" Instead, he had to go for a swim and have an epiphany. I'm not complaining, mind you. The latter better fits the theme of the show.

There's been a lot of talk about whom D'Anna said "I'm so sorry" to when she had the vision of the Five in the temple. I figured it was to Saul, since the cylons, you know, ripped out his eyeball. How did D'Anna even know that Ellen was dead? Did I forget or miss something along the way?

I know it's been verified that she was apologizing to Ellen, after all. I just liked the idea that she was apologizing to Saul, especially when I saw them sitting together on the beach in this episode. They almost acted like they were friends or somehow kindred - beyond the fact that they are both cylons. It makes more sense to me that she was apologizing to Saul. The cylons mercilessly brutalized him. What did the cylons directly do to Ellen for which D'Anna would need to apologize?

So many questions . . .

Mark Sonntag said...

Sad episode, but for me really really good.

I like some of these theories, but what I am wondering, if the final 5 were among millions of other Cylons on Earth and perished along with them, why are they so important?

If they reincarnate then they are technically human now, how does anybody know about them?

But more perplexing is Starbuck, who resurrected her and why? Was it technology from her downed Viper that led to the Earth Cylons being created? Looks like the story is a paradox.

This is what I'm gonna miss about BSG.

ProgGrrl said...

Oh gods...no more D'Anna? Sigh.

Eric H said...

@ D'Anna fanclub: So say we all :) I'm gonna miss her terribly, even if she did have a chilling ruthless side (airlocking at least one Colonial hostage, for starters).

@General Boy, I'm totally with you on the D'Anna apology having more resonance with Saul Tigh, at least based on what we know now. But perhaps we will discover that RDM has a reason for imagining it was Ellen. It does seem we will be seeing her again, perhaps quite a lot. The more I think about this thousands-of-years-old-married-couple arc, the more I love it.

Anonymous said...

@ General Boy
@ Eric H

D'Anna can't be apologizing to Saul for his eye, or Ellen for anything, since both of those things happened *after* she saw the Final Five. The New Caprica settlement and occupation was after the Eye of Jupiter/Temple discovery.

Her apology never really made sense. To make it fit, you have to find something worth apologizing for prior to the Temple scene.. and maybe even something D'Anna herself did, since she seemed (to me) to be offering a personal apology. At best, she villified some of the crew during her filming exposé when she was posing as a reporter on Galactica.

Slight rant:

I think we're about to discover that RDM's great plot arc really isn't held together as well we'd like to hope. For example, I didn't realize he hadn't planned 12 cyclons, reveal 7, then reveal 5 as a central plot point back when the show was conceived. They're making up quite a bit of this as they go along.

For example, they worked so hard on the prophetic aspect of Leoben's character, and his cryptic truths (he doesn't lie, as far as I can tell). So, I'm waiting to see how they cope with his "Adama is a cyclon." line. I seriously hope the writers don't ignore it, and just pass it off as manipulation/lies. (Actually, my hunch is fixing this up is why Zak is coming back in the final episodes.)

Eric H said...

@ Anonymous - Actually, the New Caprica occupation ended (in the 2-parter "Exodus") well before the events in "Rapture" in which D'Anna saw the faces of the final five. So the apology could certainly have been to Ellen for something rather more serious than bad press :)

I don't disagree with your rant, but neither does Ron Moore. He's been very frank about their creating this grand mythology on the fly. I won't be at all surprised if there are holes in the whole story once revealed, and I am trying to keep this in mind as I go along. Anyone expecting a tidy, completely flawless grand plot arc will be disappointed (witness the angst now running amok here). Even for the best show on television, it's still TV, and the chaotic nature of writing and producing for this medium makes it fairly impossible to achieve an epic storyline over multiple seasons and hiatuses that's as internally consistent as, say, an Arthur C. Clarke novel.

But I think there is every chance we will get a gripping, satisfying conclusion even if it relies on a fair bit of retcon. That's why I love the Saul-Ellen plot arc, even though I know the writers dreamed that up only recently.

As to Leoben, I think it's safe to assume he mixes lies with truth. He certainly lied in a big way to Starbuck about their "daughter."

Anonymous said...

Anyone who thinks Leoben isn't a crafty liar, hasn't been paying attention. But he's crafty...and his lies always seem to have a purpose.

Adam Whitehead said...

"The New Caprica settlement and occupation was after the Eye of Jupiter/Temple discovery."

As mentioned before, not it wasn't ;-) It was five episodes earlier.

The most telling thing of this episode for me is that it confirms that whatever the 13th Tribe was, it wasn't 'us'. Even assuming this is 'our' Earth (and the lengths the producers are going not to answer this question directly is highly suspicious), the nuking happened 2,000 years ago which is, at best, only 2,000 years after the 13th Tribe left Kobol (the dates conflict between the 'Home' 2-parter in Season 2 and the 'Eye of Jupiter' story). And obviously our civilisation is much, much older than just 2,000 years. So that city wasn't New York and Anders wasn't Bob Dylan in a prior incarnation ;-)

ElWray said...

Interesting ideas from everyone but what's bothering me is this - assuming that the 'Earth' in BSG is similar/identical to real life (as in before it got nuked) surely they'd have fallout shelters / underground bunkers left somewhere on the planet - I can't believe they're going to just go off and find a new planet. There has to be something left.

General Boy said...

I'm disturbed by what I'm reading and hearing on other sites about Earth. It truly appears that the planet that our rag-tag fleet has found is Earth. *The* Earth. The problem: No human beings.

If it isn’t acknowledged in the show that Earth belonged to human beings at some point, is the show about human beings at all? Otherwise, we're talking about humanoids, aren't we? Aliens? If that’s the case, I feel that my empathy for the characters has been based on a farce. Yes, you could be clever and say, "Oh! You feel the same way that the characters feel when they discover their loved ones are cylons! Your world has been turned upside-down! Brilliant! How do you like that?" Yes, but that's a cheap shot, though, isn't it?

Maybe I'm taking this point too far, but why bother calling this planet they have been looking for all this time Earth if it isn't the Earth the way the viewers understand it? Isn't that one of the essential appeals of the show? That our kin are out in space looking for us? Doesn't the chain of events need to start on Earth? I don’t object to it being solely occupied by cylons at some point in time. In fact, that’s a great plot development, isn’t it? I freaked out just like everyone else when Saul said of the skeletons, "They're all cylon. Every last one of them." I just need human beings to be there, too.

I was wondering how evolutionary biology was going to square with the established BSG mythology in this re-imagined show. I'm afraid it is simply going to be ignored. Don't get me wrong. I'm not an apologist for the original series (e.g., "Ewww! Starbuck's a girl??!!). I just think Earth - the way all think of it - is as essential as the cylons are to the show. Throwing Earth, *The* Earth, out the window seems too much to me.

Weren’t you all excited when The Four were hearing “All Along the Watchtower” in their heads? “I know that song!” you exclaimed. You asked, “How do they know it?”, and your minds went whirling with ideas and theories. Now, we learn it’s just a song . . . . that Anders wrote?

Is RDM an Earth-tease? I am hopeful that some variation of the Earth-theories that have been bounced around on the internets will appear in the show (e.g., [cue original series theme-song] "Life out there, began here. Let me explain. First, it was here. Then, it moved out there. Then, some of it moved back here, but most of it moved farther out there. Now, all of it has moved back here. To Brooklyn, NY.").

I’m being a little silly here, but I am concerned about this – as much as someone could be, I guess, about a TV show. I'm just . . . commiserating with those of you who may feel the same. I’ve been rattled by some plot developments in the show, but I’ve recovered and realized how sensible they were in the end. Maybe I’ll feel the same way about this Earth thing.

Later, Earthlings.

Logan Gawain said...

@ General Boy, well I would just say we should take what we've been told at face value: The 13th tribe was a tribe of Cylons from Kobol who settled on a planet they called earth. Something really catastrophic happened to their society. And at least 5 of them had some kind of plan to save themselves, as Ellen hinted at in Saul's 2000 year flashback.

In time I'm sure we'll see how the rest of it plays out, as further things will certainly be revealed.

Eric H said...

@ General Boy, I am totally with you -- well stated. For me, a purely allegorical BSG universe without OUR real Earth in it (whether in our distant past or distant future) would still be a good story, but also a letdown because of all the Earth teases, not the least of which is the geographically-correct zoom shot showing North America at the end of Crossroads, Part 2.

Clearly, RDM wants us to be wondering right now if the cinder planet they just found is our Earth. Why else would they avoid showing any continents or other hard confirmation now, and why else would he continue to parse his words carefully in the recent Mo Ryan interview? I could see it playing out either way - it's our Earth at another time, or it's another planet the 13th tribe named Earth. Although the Watchtower authorship is a seeming sticking point for any cosmology that actually includes Bob Dylan and the rest of us, I'm not too hung up on it. I just hope they resolve it in a way that's not too hokey. I'm quite sure it will be specifically addressed, though.

Ditto the timeline (regardless of whether the cinder planet is our Earth). I tend to agree with Brad Templeton that placing this in our far future is more satisfying than in our distant past, but I am willing to wait and see how they spin it out. If I had to guess, my money's on distant past, despite RDM's early promises not to violate evolutionary biology. I'm still trusting him to make it all work somehow, though not without some worry.

So: my heart is with General Boy, and my head is with Logan. It's a delicious anxiety :)

p.s. Lots of unabashed fan-wanking discussion about all this here, btw.

General Boy said...

I just needed to get all that off my chest. I'm better now. At least, until the next episode! I hear they're going to Mars! Mars? Leave Mars alone! Leave my solar system alone!

JK

I forgot to mention that the disappointment that Earth wasn't what the colonists expected was analogous to the disappointment that the Earth wasn't what some viewers expected. The irony!

One last thing: Somewhere I read that someone speculated that D'Anna's apology was directed at Anders. It's fun to speculate, isn't it? I say this, though: Watch that scene with D'Anna and Saul sitting on Earth together again, and think of the apology directed at Saul. The scene seems more poignant, doesn't it? It struck me as a special moment that way.

OK, time to go watch more inauguration wrap-ups!

Out!

General Boy said...

Welcome to OCD Anonymous.

Last one, then I'll shut up.

Didn't the Book of Pythia foretell that the dying leader would not make it to Earth? A little spooky, don't you think?

Out.

Finally, let me just say that Klaus Kinski as Fitzcaraldo has perfectly captured my sentiments.

zme1 said...

Very intriguing possibilities here!
First, I want to say I'm glad someone else saw the ending with Tigh realizing Ellen was the 5 as uplifting. RDM said in the podcast that the ep was meant to be all dark all the time, but I did think that gave us some tiny bit of light to grab hold of. More questions: what about Hera and the opera house? Will we ever learn why Hera is 'special' and Nicky not so much? I too have lots of problems with a world that has prophecy and cycles of history as one of its operating systems that isn't thought out ahead of time - so far they've pulled it out, but I hope they don't paint themselves in a corner. But I have to say, it was satisfying in a way to have Leoben stand there slack jawed with the rug pulled out from under him. Wiped that smug smile right off his face...

Mark Sonntag said...

I'm not too fussed about the 13th colony being Cylon, I remember reading an interview with Glen Larson (the original creator of BSG) and that the series was loosely based on Greek mythology in some way. I wonder if RDM and some of the other writers have read the work of Zecharia Sitchin's Earth Chronicles books?

He was an anthropologist who back in the 70s proposed we were genetically manipulated by other beings, basing his theory on ancient artifacts and religious stories.

Kind of a cool concept.

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