Friday, March 20, 2009

Open Thread: #422-423 Daybreak Part 2

Don’t forget to DVR an extra 11 minutes over the 2 hours tonight if you are taping to watch later.

Past 4.5 open threads can be found in the index on our blogroll rightside column. If you know of other fun sites or forums that are having lively non-spoilery episode discussions, please feel free to post links here as well.

Our final open thread. This is not easy to type…Ron may have spontaneously burst into tears many times last summer, when the show was wrapping. Well, now it’s OUR TURN. Sigh.

Wow people…we have arrived! ::verklempt, hands out tissues::

Tissue art courtesy bobbarker


Writer: Ronald D. Moore
Director: Michael Rymer


Adam Whitehead said...

I guess this is it then. The board is green, the FTL is spun up and Romo's let the head-cat in for the night.

Last time I was this invested in a TV series finale it was DEEP SPACE NINE's ten years ago. And that was awesome. And RDM was involved in that as well. So here's hoping to a good send-off for the show.

General Boy said...

Here we go. Time to roll the hard six.

Hieu Le Bui said...

WTFrak? the ending made the Return of the King ending short in comparission.

Well here's a commercial to THE PLAN!

hahnarama said...

Someone PLEASE explain the last 7 minutes to me.

Hieu Le Bui said...

I think everyone on the show was a Cylon since Starbuck was revealed to be an inhead character. Six and Baltar are gods every since the beginning and I mean THE beginning. RDM involving the robotics creation on the current Earth as a way to fold them into the mythology of the show was great. I think there's going to be alot of paranoid now that life is immitating art. The ending ran a bit too long but it laid out the ending for each character nicely but too "Lord of the Ring Return of the King" to me.

Christian said...

I'm not sure there's anything to explain, that's just what there was, Angels, Demons, Robots, humans and all.

I think the ending was just a wee bit self indulgent, but it did what they wanted it to do: resolve the stories of all the various characters.

Everyone got an ending, and in most cases, I feel like they were ones that were deserved.

Whether you enjoyed it or not is up to you, but I still think it was a damn fine piece of television.

Christian said...

Re: The designation of "in-head":

It's my humble opinion that that phrase is no longer valid. Nothing was ever purely in anyone's head. How do you explain an "in-head" turning the switch?

We'll have to come up with something else.

Anonymous said...

Well I almost cried like a little girl...and I'm not ashamed to admit that.

Beautiful. Exactly what I had hoped for...I think. Epic. A truly fitting end.

I'm already having withdrawal symptoms...

Grant Gould said...

Wow.. I don't even have words. I have to watch it again before I can even begin to type up an actual review or coherent thoughts. heh :)

Ron Moore & Crew: You are all amazing.

If anyone wants to keep up on the fan reactions over at BSG Blog, here's the link:

Michael Diaz said...

Just so we're clear, I've loved the show since day one, and sure, there's no way that this finale could have lived up to the hype that surrounded it.

That said, IMHO Ronald Moore shit the bed on this one. I thought that the ending was just plain dumb. What happened to the intelligence of this show? It's like all logic was thrown out the window.

So sad.

Anonymous said...

There aren't any words yet here either -- I'm still trying to let it all sink in.

A fantastic end to a fantastic show. I'm glad to have taken a part in some minuscule way as a fan over the years! Thanks to all involved in the show for a wonderful ride!

(Oh one thing, the 150,000 years later thing was cool. Hell, it reminded me of a BBC article I read only this week about life like robots in Japan being tested even further!).

P.S. - I guess we can call them "angels" instead of head characters now?

Anonymous said...

Well the last time I was this satisfied, Wash was just burried with the preacher man, and Serenity was lifting off into the strom. I wanted to be able to walk away and want to watch it all over again, and I got it.

Oh, and Adama for President

Arthur Goldsmith said...

Shit the Bed!? Far from, RDM is brilliant. No other show discusses religion, philosophy,and interpersonal relationships with such exquisit writing and acting. He nailed this one on the head!!!! Just incredible!!!!

Unknown said...

Edward James Olmos was so very correct. This series finale was satisfying. It answered the big questions, and it was amazing television that challenges viewers to grapple with difficult issues. (I wonder if the United Nations people knew the final message of the show when they scheduled the conference.) Indeed, only the most obtuse person could watch this and not start thinking about the so-called "big issues."

Now, hopefully those dolts in the committee(s) choosing the nominations and winners for the Emmy's finally pay attention.

daily4 said...

it would have been perfect IF they had explained the whole starbuck arc. they built it up for TWO seasons & all we get is sam saying i'll see you on the other side/ "poof" & shes gone?????

would have even settled for a brief glimpse of her in the future. it's ruined it for me.

how awesome was it when tyrol snapped torys neck? pretty sure that was especially written for EVERY bsg fan..

Joseph Betni said...

This brought a good close to an excellent show. The only thing I really didn't like was the Starbuck ending as it really didn't end it for me... so people were out there following nothing that whole time and just guessing or is it really based on the assumption of Angels... as much as I love BSG that was a bit of a stretch. The rest of the ending was fantastic, brought me to tears even...

Bravo to all fantastic show and so sad to see it go... Such a complex show from start to finish that provided for my sci-fi addiction... now we have to pray that someone comes out with another all powerful space series... someone page Giaus Baltar and figure out who we have to pray to, to get a new show.

Unknown said...

Wow, just astounding.

Nothing will ever top this show.

Nicholas said...

Well, had been right the whole time (man did the showrunners plan this out well). They've been saying that the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth wasn't our Earth since last September, and that that planet was not the one Starbuck saw visions of after Maelstrom, which WAS our Earth. The constellations in the Tomb of Athena never matched the view of those constellations from our Earth, though Gaeta in Revelations states that they match the Thirteenth Colony. Also, that the Cylon Civil War took place in our Solar System, near Jupiter -- and therefore that Starbuck did lead the Demetrius close to our Earth before becoming sidetracked by Leoben and the rebel Basestar.

For me, all of it worked out once Starbuck disappeared, actually. I've always just thought about her as connected to the Lords of Kobol and Aurora after Maelstrom and the whole statuette thing. She saw visions of our Earth before crashing on the Thirteenth Colony, which allowed all of this to come together.

I thought the episode was perfect.

Robert J. Summers said...

Ok, using mysticism is a weak plot device that took no thinking at all. Kara just disappearing was a stupid cop out.

The decision to abandon the ships and all tech (they only had bags on their backs) was not at all realistic. 38,000 people giving up all music ever writen, all books and knowledge, all poetry, all instruments, all medical equipment, etc... There is simply NO WAY. They are all going to sleep in caves when they could have ships to sleep in while they build their farms...

They should have kept the technology and showed it all decaying over the years. Rusting away into the ground as the civilization disintegrated.

Paul Brown said...

I don't understand about Starbuck. Was she real or not? If she was, then how did she get a brand new viper? If she wasn't, then how did she interact with everyone? She wasn't in everyone's heads, she interacted with the world around her.

I loved the show, I just don't understand this part. Does anyone and if so please explain it to me. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

My only reaction: I want to frakking cry.

My only thought: that was a total dodge with Starbuck!

Unknown said...

It wasn't a total dodge with Starbuck. If they gave you an "answer" you'd probably not be satisfied. I know I wouldn't be. I like that it's left up to me to think about, to wonder... what was she? Not everything in life has an answer. Life does have its mysteries.

In other words, having the answer is not nearly as satisfying as seeking out the answer for yourself.

SpectreAG said...

Great ending! Two things that I noticed...

1) Did anyone notice the music in the second half of the episode that sounded a lot like a theme from Alien? I love the music Bear comes up with, but I found it curious that this sounded so much like that same theme from Alien.
2) Near the beginning of the episode when the camera is passing through the fleet, I noticed something familiar about one of the ships that I had not noticed before. The ship looked identical to the Kodiak vessel from the Command and Conquer: Tiberium Sun computer game. I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this. You can google the image to see what I am talking about. It would actually make sense to use the ship because not many people would recognize it, and that it was made for FMV cutscenes so it could easily be used for other mediums.

Unknown said...

An amazing ending until the absolute disaster that was the end of the Starbuck story arc. I agree with those ppl above, it was a complete cop out. They had no answer to Starbuck, so she just disappears?? If she was an angel, who was the Demetrius crew following? Why did Gaeta get his leg shot off in a mutiny against someone who wasn't there? How can Kara's viper be sitting on Galactica to give the radio signal to Earth for everyone to see and touch, how can she interact with everyone, and then just disappear???

Awful, awful ending to what could have been an amazing story

Asher Abrams said...

Lamer than Lampkin and Gaeta in a potato sack race.

General Boy said...

Consummatum est.

dutch101st said...

Enough about the Starbuck worked, it fit, get over it.

She was, in the end, a life force who in her own search for meaning lost her life, was given it back my this "higher power" to finish what she was meant to do.

Forget the pristine viper, forget the "unanswered" stuff...its all there. If you are too narrow minded to accept the fate of Kara Thrace, then you havent been watching.

Perfect ending to a great show. RDM's process is par excellence and Bear's soundtrack is haunting and fit each and every scene.

Thank you, producer's, writes, directors, crew and cast. Job well done!

Unknown said...

After the credits rolled, there were seriously no words. Even now, I'm very quiet.

My only note, to which I'm seeing a lot of comments about, is Starbucks exit. It literally made me gasp.

Very thankful for the presence that GalacticaSitRep has had during the final season. Thanks to all that were here. Fans, moderators, everybody.

Thank the gods for this show and those angels. Again, just a quiet somber but content silence that followed.


Jack Greenwood said...

I thought it was a great ending, although the show really ended at the point Adama was talking to Roslin's grave.

The 150,000 years later part was a pretty nifty way to tie in RDM reading the magazine (just like JMS turning off the lights on B5 on the last episode) and showing that humanity's penchant for an ever evolving thirst for technology took us right back through the cycle. Besides, they needed to somehow tie it back to our current reality because I'm sure there are lots of people who desired that.

The Starbuck thing kinda mirrors the Galactica 1980 ep. called "The Return of Starbuck". so stop grousing. Enjoy the show for what it is and was.

Like JMS said, after this, you may watch the show again, but like a good book, you'll someday put it on the shelf and move on to other things.


Neil Lavitt said...

Gee, all the autistic souls in here need a literal scientific answer to everything. Its not Voyager for crikes sake! Starbuck was a coming... a messiah whatever you want to call her. A higher power sent her. Everyone could see her because they all saw what they wanted to see. She died on Earth and returned to complete her purpose.

I think the message was great here. Now we have evolved, will we let all this happen again? A fable of a failed race or one that survives? It is up to us all.

Anonymous said...

I should have clarified: the "dodge" was what I feel was still-unsettled nature of her relationship with Lee.

Couldn't we get just one kiss good-bye?!?

That aside, this finale definitely set a standard I doubt will be topped in our lifetime for television drama. It answered what it needed to, finished what it needed to, and guaranteed we'll all be attending BSG-cons for decades to come.

My one personal regret is I'll likely never have the chance to thank any of the cast or crew personally for this magnificent piece of work.

General Boy said...

I'm so drained right now. I want to get in on a discussion about the show, but I'm wiped out. I really am speechless. I've tried to write a little bit about it here, but it was pretty sappy and incoherent. I think I'll just reflect on it for now. Maybe I'll chime in later.

Unknown said...

I loved BSG, but the finale was a MISERABLE FAILURE! Virtually all of the unresolved plot mechanisms that have kept us guessing over the years were either left unresolved or resolved with "it was God."

RDM's final farewell was an insult to his fan's intelligence.

Anonymous said...

My wife an I both sobbed hysterically each time we watched it tonight, and not just once but for the duration of entire segments of the episode.

We were left not only with a bittersweet farewell to characters who, at least we've found, to be something like our friends these last several years. (Godsdamn we will miss them, and I'm not even kidding.) But the ending was fascinating in other ways, too.

First, it deepened the characters retroactively. Every moment between Lee & Kara will be shaped by their interaction with Zak on the couch. Every moment in the series between Baltar and Caprica will be touched by the legitimate love between them, vis-a-vis Baltar's father.

Second, it was theologically/philosophically interesting. We're both Ph.D. students in Religious Studies and would love to write about this series one day (if that's possible in the current academic climate). Those who say RDM pulled a simplistic "a wizard did it" divinity out of his ass are wrong. The incarnate God (The one who shall not be named, possibly the music, or the cosmic process itself) in Kara Thrace was a masterful inclusion deserving of more than a casual or dismissive glance by the audience, for the religious and non-religious alike. Glance again at your enlightenment philosophy, namely Hegel, for a treat. There's some lovely work to be done on this literature.

Thank you, RDM & David, and thank you Bear. And thank you to all the actors. (I hope Katee's career gets a boost after this, too!) This series, thanks to you, has changed both of our lives (and careers, if we ever get jobs, of course).

Unknown said...

Loved it. Didn't want it to end. Here's my heartfelt farewell review (real men cry):

Jordan=Cylon said...

I loved the ending. I thought I was going to be unimpressed right up until the jump forward 150,000 years perfect ending. Definitely put a huge smile on my face when I saw the Ron Moore cameo. Still confused about Starbuck, and I know most people don't care about this, but I wished there was closure on the Leoben/Kara storyline. There was only an hour and a half to work with, and I agree they rounded of all the most important things. Thank you R&D

Ken Arneson said...

Just watched the finale on DVR; I missed it live, as I was watching the last March Madness college basketball game of the night, Siena vs. Ohio State. The game went into two overtimes.

In the first overtime, a Siena player hit a last second three-point shot to tie the game. In the second overtime, that same player hit a last-second three-point shot to win the game.

That player's name? Ronald Moore.

Tonight, if you were Ronald Moore, there were angels looking over your shoulder.

Mingh said...

Regarding Starbuck's ending:

I think too many people are caught up with their pre-conceived notions of what an "angel" should be.

No doubt, the label 'angel' best fits what Kara was but its not the same as the non-physical spirits we imagine with wings and halo. She was definitely a human being, she had a corporeal form and in that sense at least was different from Head-six and Head-Baltar.

How is this all possible? It is a logical possibility once you posit the existence of a divine being. So is the pristine Viper she returned in.

Really, her disappearance, sudden as it was, is the best way they could possibly have explained what she is. Is it understated? Of course. But thats part and parcel of the bittersweet ending they were going for.


C. said...

Wow, plain wow.
For a while I was a little annoyed with the 'it all happened long ago', but the epilogue pulled me back in.
I think it was important that they tied it to our time, our society. Though I had always assumed they'd arrive at earth in the distant future not our past.
This actually worked better, as Neil said above me, it brought home the message of what kind of people do we want to be? Is it in our nature to repeat our mistakes or can we learn to overcome our instincts.
And I like that in the end they could, despite that seemingly just slowing down the cycle.

Anyway, this was a great end to a great show and now it's time to get dressed.

Anonymous said...

Must give props to Ron Moore and David Eick: who else could have slipped not one, but two subtle nods to the original Glenn Larson series?

First, the TOS theme gently plays as the fleet speeds on its way into the sun.

Second, they give truth to Patrick McGee's original, soulful opening monologue: "There are those that believe that life here, began out there." Of course, who in their right mind would thought Hera Agathon would be considered the 'mother' of humanity?

Unknown said...

In regards to people interacting with Starbuck - remember head six was seen to physically pick Gaius up outside his groupies place and move him around. So if a head character can do that why couldn't a 'head' or 'angel' character interact like a real person? I thought it fitted in really well and closed the arc nicely!

Great ep!

drjon said...

Daybreak Pt.2 was good, but when's the Finale on, again?

Gen said...

Well, Hera was the mother goddess... I actually thought & hoped the show would tie into Greek mythology somehow. The last 45 minutes or so weren't what I would have done, but I can accept the ending. I have mixed feelings about the fleet landing, getting rid of all their technology, and integrating into early human culture. One of my friends commented, "What about the Raptors they still had on Earth? I'm going to start digging in my backyard." After four years of building connections, I find it hard to believe that the survivors would wants to disperse like that.

If Starbuck is an angel or other divine spirit, it seems weird to me that she had her own head character and got a new Viper/new body. Even as a divine entity it also seemed out of character that she wouldn't want to stay with Lee, even for a little while. Lee now how nobody close to him. (Also don't understand why the Admiral had to leave permanently...). I would have felt better with Starbuck disappearing as she jumped the ship rather than peacing out on Earth.

Helo lived, touching. Sad to lose Anders, as I always liked him. None of the female human characters are alive at the end, interesting (maybe Seelix?). Tyrol was the first Scot, if I interpreted that right. And my biggest question is what was meant by Head-Baltar's comment that God "doesn't like to be called that"?

Michael Olsen said...

As close to perfect as a finale has ever been.

Browncoat Jedi said...

Sorry to all the people who just didn't get it. There's a simpler TV show for's called Stargate.

Unknown said...

Two Earths.

Wait. What?!

How come they were identical?

The one in the finale showed us Africa. The "Watchtower" Earth showed us N. America. How can both be "Earth?"

Makes no sense to me.

al said...

I did enjoy the finale,but I had a few minor quibbles. I would not voluntarily go back to the stone age!!:) I could live without TV and computers but for the love of god lets keep indoor plumbing and alcohol distillation!!:) Starbuck disappearing also threw me off too. I was thinking that she was going to wind up being a half-human half -cylon. She was artistic and wasn't the one model that was destroyed also an artistic one too? I thought maybe one of them would have escaped and gotten frisky with Kyra's mother. It would have also explained how she came back to life too don't you think?

idiosynchronic said...

hose who say RDM pulled a simplistic "a wizard did it" divinity out of his ass are wrong. The incarnate God (The one who shall not be named, possibly the music, or the cosmic process itself) in Kara Thrace was a masterful inclusion deserving of more than a casual or dismissive glance by the audience, for the religious and non-religious alike. Glance again at your enlightenment philosophy, namely Hegel, for a treat. There's some lovely work to be done on this literature.

It was also more than a nod to the original series plots concerning 'angels'. They were bumbling messes of 2nd Grade theology, but they certainly played a major part in the ethos of the prior show. To ignore them, after everything else included in the reimagined version, would have been poor writing.

Athelstane said...

Mo Ryan, in her review, says: "That final image of Adama sitting on that hill would have been a lovely way to end the series. I actually did think that was the ending, until suddenly we were confronted with a very different image -- a modern metropolis 150,000 years later."

I like to think of that final scene on the hilltop *as* the end of the story. That's the last moment that's set in the GALACTICA narrative. And it's a wonderful, perfect, lyrical note to end it on.

What comes 150,000 years later is an epilogue.

And had I been doing it, perhaps I would have underlined it by leaving a longer black screen pause between the two. You could use the word "epilogue" but you don't have to.

As much as I enjoyed that first hour - I think I may have enjoyed the second one even more. Perhaps it was the lush greenness of the scenery. The grace moments. Or the realization that even if Lee is wrong - that the problem is human nature, not the technology - that they're all too damaged, too exhausted by the lives they led on those grimy, beat up ships, that they want a fresh start. Even if that means primitive solitude on an African hilltop or the Scottish highlands. Or getting dinner with a bow and arrow.

Athelstane said...

Hello Schmelding:

"The one in the finale showed us Africa. The "Watchtower" Earth showed us N. America. How can both be "Earth?""

Moore explains in his interview with Ryan (up today on her blog) that what you saw in CROSSROADS PART II was "our" Earth, not the Cylon one. Note that when they arrive at the Cylon Earth in Revelations they're careful not to show you any geography.

"RDM: That was all specifically thought out. The planet that you see at the end of "Crossroads" is this planet that we stand on. It has the North American continent and the South American [continent], it's very clear, we wanted it to be visually easy to identify for everybody.

"Kara takes them to both Earths, as a matter of fact. She takes them to the original Earth, which, when we showed it in Revelations, we were careful to never quite be able to identify the land masses from orbit. We wanted you to accept it as Earth, and most people assumed it was this Earth, but we didn't want to flat out mislead you, so we didn't want to have it look like North America too."

idiosynchronic said...

The one in the finale showed us Africa. The "Watchtower" Earth showed us N. America. How can both be "Earth?"

The simple explanation for Stargate fans

see said...

I loved the first hour but was disappointed in the end. After teasing us with the Lee/Kara relationship for four years I wanted them to finally be together. But beyond that, it seemed like most of them had such a sad and isolated ending. Lee is all alone. Adama inexplicably goes off alone never to see anyone again? despite leading all of these people for the past four years, repairing his relationship with his son, his only living family, and he chooses to just go off and never see Lee again? why would he do that? and sending all their ships into the sun - abandoning all technology, medicine, everything so they can live how? ok and then the worst is the Kara story arc which makes no sense. so she's the Christ figure or an angel or whatever leading the people to salvation - why have her die on the first earth? she blew up in the maelstrom, so did she die then or did she die in the viper crash? the second death with finding the body makes no sense. what was that planet and when did she crash there - I don't get it.

Athelstane said...

You know, I'm reading all the angry comments about Starbuck's end, and I keep going back to what Moore said in his Mo Ryan interview - and the more I think about it, the more satisfied I am with how he did it:

MR: I know that you don’t let yourself be guided by what you think the fan reaction might be, and you do what you feel is right for the show, but the ending of Kara – her just disappearing like that. That’ll certainly be a starting point for debate.

RDM: Oh yeah, it’ll be controversial. There will be people who will absolutely hate it and think that we failed in our mission. We debated it in the [writers] room, I thought about it a long time, and I had sort of the same answer. And the more I struggled to give definition to it, the less satisfying it became. There various avenues we went down, discussions, saying she’s specifically this or that. And every time it felt uninteresting and kind of pedestrian.

It felt like, if she’s truly connected to the Eternal, if she’s connected to this other power, this other thing in the universe, as long as you know she’s connected to it and she’s fulfilled her destiny, brought us to this place, brought us to two Earths, really, that’s enough. That should just be left to your imagination, left to your inquiry, left you to try to fill in the blanks we leave. That was my answer and I’m sure -- I know – people will debate it.

MR: It worked for me, but I also wondered, has she been a Head character this whole time?

RDM: That’s a legitimate way to look at it too. We talked about that, that is a legitimate way to read it.

MR: But the Head characters can’t actually interact with the world, so it’s not quite that.

RDM: This is a different thing, so it doesn’t fit neatly into that category either.

MR: The more I think about it, the more I think the Starbuck debate might set the Internets on fire.

RDM: I have more than accepted the fact that there will be people who will never quite get over that.

ramblerQMT said...

Wow. Haven't seen the finale yet (gotta love the DVR), and I'm already feeling withdrawals. I did, obviously, consciously choose to read through the comments to prepare myself. Sounds like its going to be an interesting ride.

A couple comments, though.. when it comes to repeating our past mistakes. You don't have to look too far to see answers to that question. Look at how society once denied rights to people of different races and now to people of different sexual orientation. Look at Vietnam and Iraq.

But, I digress. Ah, social commentary.. something obviously BSG was able to accomplish. Clearly evident with the United Nations panel happening. Looks like BSG has become our generation's Star Trek, much like Trek was back in the 60's.

BSG will be missed..!!

Mitchell Clan said...

Cried when I heard the original BSG music playing...that was an amazing tie-in.

Unknown said...

Starbuck's ending is sort of a cop out, but it still works pretty well. Reminds me of that Mitch Hedberg joke about how an escalator that's broken is just stairs. Starbuck's ending is a broken escalator. Still gets the job done, but you've got to work harder for it, and it's not really as satisfying as it could have been.

But the rest of the finale was just haunting and awesome.

Athelstane said...

Hello See,

But beyond that, it seemed like most of them had such a sad and isolated ending. Lee is all alone. Adama inexplicably goes off alone never to see anyone again? despite leading all of these people for the past four years, repairing his relationship with his son, his only living family, and he chooses to just go off and never see Lee again? why would he do that? and sending all their ships into the sun - abandoning all technology, medicine, everything so they can live how?

As I read it - they had all been through too much. They were too damaged, too exhausted by what they had been through. They were weighed down by what they had done, how they (if you will pardon the term) sinned. Especially against each other. I think seeing those beat up hulks heading out of orbit brought it home to me, and very effectively done by Moore.

To go back to Adama's speech in the mini-series: "Sooner or later, the day comes when you can’t hide from the things that you’ve done anymore." They had done a lot, to themselves and each other, before the Cylon attack and after. And they couldn't hide from it. And when they reached Earth...I think the idea of just hunkering down and rebuilding colonial civilization all over again wasn't something they could all bear. To borrow a line from LORD OF THE RINGS, humanity was saved, but not for them.

And in that sense their decision was a mistake on some level, and not just the practical: the problem is not the technology, but the human nature that builds and (mis)uses it. Even the Amish don't forsake all technology. And Moore's narrative seems to recognize that. Because as we see in the epilogue, the advanced (robot building?) civilization ended up getting built eventually anyway.

I wonder about the unanimity of such a decision, like Romo did. You have to think at least a few die hards would not want to give up the ships and technology. But that's a quandary I can forgive the show in the interests of the coherency of the last chapter.

Just a Guy said...

One of the great connections I made brought me back a couple of episodes with what appears to be Starbuck's father teaching her on the piano. That father appeared to have such a gentle but persistent love. There was also the discomfort over the distance he felt because he decided to pursue his music. For me, it was an amazing picture of God's love. It brought me to tears.

amp said...

In the end the gods/god were...god. Awesome and unexpected in my view...We, the cynical, post-modern TV watchers of the 21st century waited with anticipation to learn, at the very end we expected, that these deities would be revealed something else, something "real," something scientifically "plausible," something we could relate to in the scifi genre. Oops. Turns out the god all these characters were appealing to was god. The god.

I blogged some more about my thoughts here

bobert said...

Yes I get it! Thats why I was left with a feeling that RDM gave me a sore feeling in my backside. Another reason that science and religion don't mix well. After all it does sound a bit sciency and tology or should I say inteligency designiny or whatever magic you want to make believe. Will I watch well maybe I think I will put on a mask and pretend I am Darth Nihilist at a star wars convention infected with Midi-chlorians.

Justin said...

I haven't really seen it mentioned on this board yet, but for anyone who thinks the ending was an example of deus ex machina, I would have to respectfully disagree.

I understand the origins of the phrase but, despite the fact that the ending did literally involve what could be thought of as an "angel" or "God" or "god," I don't think it applies. The concept, defined as "a plot device in which a surprising or unexpected event occurs in a story's plot, often to resolve flaws or tie up loose ends in the narrative" doesn't work here, if you've been watching the entire series.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I was honestly not surprised to find out that Starbuck could be described as an angel or that an unseen force was directing all of this, due to the numerous references to God or gods throughout the show. Now we know that we should have been listening to Head Six and Head Baltar the whole time! These head characters set up the possibility that some unseen force, or god, was influencing events throughout the series. So, I would argue the ending was *not* a cop-out or a deus ex machina. Even though, at first glance, it would appear to fit the definition.

On a totally personal note, when I saw Africa on the blue planet Starbuck led them to, I did something I've *never* done while watching a television show: I cried. Or, to be more accurate, I laughed and cried at the same time. Wow - what a great show.

P.S. And I know it doesn't like that name. ;-)

MJS said...

Well, since we're all chipping in about the ending, I want to put on record that I thought it was masterful (except for the epilogue on earth, which was a bit too blunt for me).

I was very happy with Starbuck's ascension, or whatever exactly happened with her. I don't think she was a head character, but the ontology of the head characters is never fully resolved anyway. After all, she had blood, and Leoben saw her body. We've never seen a head-corpse... I think, whatever she was, she didn't quite understand it either, she just knew she was done somehow, and we're not supposed to get it completely. It strikes me as bizarre that people complain this isn't lifelike or that the ending is unclear--unless their lives have neat explanations for absolutely everything, this uncertainty is precisely lifelike, or as lifelike as sentient robots and FTL drives. Also, I think that, as nice as a Lee/Starbuck ending would've been, it was more touching and more true to their love and relationship to end it on that note.

So, whatever, I accept that people have different opinions about this, but I don't get it. Since when has BSG been neat and clear? Would it have been better if Starbuck said "Sorry, Lee, I'm actually an angel, it is time for me to ascend?" or "I am an organic-memory-transfer copy of the old Starbuck, all of the weird destiny stuff is just accidental, and let's marry and have a long life together?" I did like the potential Daniel plot. That would've been satisfying. But that wouldn't explain the destiny element either.

Also, as far as the other 98% of the episode, the early reviewer was right, I couldn't breathe through at least an hour of it. I thought it was as good as any BSG action sequence including the mutiny.

-- TB said...

Thank you Galactica Sitrep, this has been a wonderful place to share our love for this incredible show.

My gods, what an ending. It was brilliant, beautiful, haunting and powerful. The opera house showed that all of them were needed to save Hera. Kara DID lead them to their end - and it was a good one. And the dying leader saw her people home.

It's funny, I read RDM's "It's the characters, stupid" quote and was miffed - I wanted the story! But he was so right, we got the story, the incredible battle featuring the teams best visual effects work to date, and then we got the real thing, those beautiful, rich and touching closings of each character's story.

I am satisfied, amazed, and I will feel a bit sad and lonely thinking of those haunting closing scenes on earth.

rob said...

In response to some former comments, neither Baltar, Caprica or Starbuck are "head" characters.

There are two "head" characters, or angels as it turns out, who take on the image of the real Baltar and Caprica, and only appear to them.

They can not touch anything, Baltar was just going fight club crazy and picked himself up that time.

Starbuck followed her destiny by entering a wormhole that took her ship to a planet called Earth. Her ships emergency beckon leads the fleet there, which was just a marker on the fleets journey.

Starbuck's destiny included being brought back from the dead by God, it was the real Kara being used as an instrument of divine intervention for the continuation of a sentient race.

Once her destiny is fulfilled, she gets the feeling she will be leaving this world (for the afterlife?). It was not voluntary but she feels content with this outcome.

As mentioned by Athelstane, the Daybreak planet is the Earth we know - the same one shown at the end of Season 3, not the nuked one. You see no continents on the nuked one because there's a nuclear winter and the atmosphere is full of ice particles.

Adama names the new planet Earth as a tribute to the original, noting that that "Earth" was the dream they were all chasing, not any particular place.

rob said...

I loved the end and I'm so grateful The Best Show was given the proper ending it deserves.

There were three things that left me a little unsettled though:

1) Bill, Lee and Tyrol all end up alone.

I'd like to think that given time they reunite, and that Bill only said his goodbyes to Lee & Kara because he was still in denial about Roslin's condition, and planned to spend the rest of his life in a secluded wilderness with her at that time. Tyrol was still getting over what happened with Tory, and Cally, and Boomer.

2) Aren't there still half a dozen Base Stars and numerous Cavils out there?
Let's just *assume* they behave themselves or never find Earth.

3) "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santaya.

Really? Destroy all records of their epic and harrowing adventures? That's like burning my Battlestar DVD collection!

HOW exactly will Starbuck "not be forgotten"? Don't Bill, Roslin, Athena and all the others deserve to go down in history as the heroes and founding fathers of this world they are? Shouldn't the mighty Galactica be remembered for its vital role in all this?

What happened to the notion of Roslin preserving the events of New Caprica for posterity? Or when Adama told his son "our log books will be the first pages in history books of the future".

I know, I know; they decided it's best to start anew, but that brings us back to George Santaya... RDM, was this all for the sake of continuity in making the planet our own past?

General Boy said...

This episode was, in the literal sense of the word, incredible. It may take some time for some fans to digest it. There are also some continuity and logic problems that have now been revealed that the thinking viewer will need to consider to some degree. Some of those problems have already been pointed out here.

A point that I am still working through is the discovery that God was a character in this show all along. I know, I know, we've heard talk about this God and sensed His presence throughout the entire series. This episode, though, put in no uncertain terms that He was a character who was present from the very start and that He is, not a natural being, but a supernatural being.

Invoking an all-powerful diety in serious fiction is problematic, isn't it? For example: The colonials find Earth inhabited by humans beings - genetically identical to themselves. At first this seems to be a silly contrivance to mesh the story with real-world science. However, Baltar is quick to point out that this coincidence suggests that a divine hand is at work.

God's presence in the story, in this way, prevents the viewer from asking any substantive, probing questions about this aspect of the plot - which any viewer should be able to do. The retort to any questions is, simply, "God wanted it that way". The viewer, then, must accept this plot device on faith: deus ex machina.

Overall, I liked the episode, but it was, as I said, incredible. I will need to watch the series again with new eyes. I'll let some time pass before I do it, though.

On another note, I loved Baltar's redemption. I choked up when he cried and said, "I know about farming". There was something genuinely *human* about that moment.

Anonymous said...

Perfectly brilliant. Just that.
I loved every second of The Ending. It could have been different. It could have been solved another way. But it haven't been. And that's utterly OK. I guess I'm talking like this because whatever ending would have been, I would still love it. I totally trusted RDM&Co, the guys I have been worshipping for years. And I juts *knew* they won't let me down, whatever they will decide to do. And it came out, that I was right.
I don't think I have ever experienced such emotions in front of the frakkin' TV screen. I was alternately smiling through tears and shaking and sweating. What a complex episode.
Altough I am able to understand that there are various kinds of "fans" of every single thing and I always truly respect different opinions, I just don't get how you can watch this show for few years and at the end still crave for answers. It has never been about answers and Daybreak showed it perfectly. The very ending was so beautifully lyrical, metaphorical and mystical, I just couldn't imagine doing it better.
Starbuck's-end haters, destroing-all-Colonial-past haters, why-didn't-we-find-Raptors-remains-in-our-backyards-then haters -- once again, I respect the fact you might have different judegement, nevertheless I'm not able to understand it. And I'm glad I'm not you right now, because it has to hurt to feel so betrayed - no irony or spite in it. IMHO The Best Show recieved The Great Ending, and it doesn't matter *at all* what?, how?, why?, in particular. What does matter, is that it was nice, it fitted and served perfectly. And leaves much space for our own thoughts. I worship the form rather than the very content, brilliant characters' arcs then tieing every single plotline. That's what it is.
It was - the ending - in fact more open and, let's say, happy, "optimistic", then I would anticipate. Actually it put more sweetnes in this bittersweet feeling that everyone is experiencing right now, that I expected. And I'm so perfectly OK with it.
Also, I'd rather conisder the "150,000 years later" thing as a epilogue. In this role it fits great. Show has ended for me with Adama over Roslin's grave... I'm imidiatelly having this melancholic wet-eyes smile on my face when thinking about this scene. What a moving and touching one. Gotta love it.
Speaking of Roslin - Mary's performance in the whole Daybreak is outstanding. The way she plays this pale, shivering, coming to her end Laura was purely brilliant. The look, the gestures, the soft smile, the look one more time! Emmy to her. Emmy to all of them. And Oscar. And John as well.
The only thing I can do right now - what you probably see - is glorify the endning and the BSG in overall. I guess I do sound too praising, but this is just how I feel.
And I wanna thank for this feeling.
Thank You.
BSG will never be forgotten.
So say we all.

Tom Roud said...

First time I leave a comment here, I precise that English is not my mother tongue.

I thought this was a frakking good ending, very consistent in the end. Two remarks :
- I agree that this is somehow unplausible to give up any kind of technology. Science is not only about weapons, it is also about medecine. Our ancestors had a life expectancy of 25 years or so, in that sense, giving up technology is a kind of collective suicide, which echoes with what happened to characters "broken" earlier like Dee or Gaeta (or maybe it is the caprican way of "going Galt" :P)
- Being frustrated by the end of the Starbuck arch is exactly as being frustrated by any kind of non natural explanation of our world. This is exactly the way scientists feel about Intelligent Design, and this is why they think this is not a viable solution. I am OK with BSG because there clearly is a God in it : he does not like to be called like that, but we actually see him in the end of the show reading National Geographic.

rob said...

oh, and as it turns out, the opera house *is* Galactica... the show proclaiming itself a space opera? :)

I seem to remember Hera giggling while running in the original take of this, I guess the writers adapted it to be a vision ensuring either Baltar or Caprica or Athena or Roslin would rescue Hera?

ProgGrrl said...

Hi guys. Sorry I have not participated yet...I'm emotionally exhausted by the end, and I need to rewatch the 3 hours again before making any wise comments here. But I am happy, satisfied...glazed over in bittersweet.

Robert Cruickshank said...

I am reminded of the final two chapters in Asimov's original Foundation Trilogy - specifically the book Second Foundation. They are titled "The Answer That Satisfied" and "The Answer That Was True."

What RDM et. al. have given us is The Answer That Was True. I also personally believe it to have been The Answer That Satisfied, but I know not everyone agrees.

And that's OK. It's impossible to please everyone. I'm sure if there were Internets back in 1990 when Newhart came to and end there'd be people burning up the lines to write "omg it was all a dream and he woke up next to Susanne Pleshette? wtf."

And I know that if there'd been teh Internets back in 1968 people would have said the same thing about the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

For us thinking fans, we can actually handle the ending we were given. It's a thoughtful ending. There is no one set way to interpret it. To make sense of it you must think. You don't get to put puzzle pieces together and you don't get to do math. You have to actually decide what it is you bring to the table emotionally, ontologically, spiritually, and mentally.

That's the kind of ending I like. But it was also a satisfying ending. As I wrote in one of the Daybreak Part 1 threads here last week I wanted an ending where I felt comfortable saying goodbye to these characters - that although their journey was not over, we were going to turn away from watching it and that we could be OK with doing so. That we could let go and feel a sense of satisfaction that their journey from the Colonies to Earth was completed, and that Galactica's fate was known.

Obviously Starbuck is going to be the biggest subject of debate. And isn't that fitting? Six years ago people were flipping out that RDM had made the character female. Now people are flipping out because he made a beloved character's final fate uncertain.

To me it makes sense - she died on the Thirteenth Colony, was resurrected as an angel, and when she fulfilled her purpose she was no longer needed.

I personally wished she and Lee would have lived Happily Ever After. But that wasn't possible, and I get it, and I am totally OK with it.

It was the finale that satisfied. And it was the finale that was true.

Anonymous said...

Plots holes (only a few) :

1) no more resurrection technology ? Baseships were accompagnied by resurrection ships because the baseships were too far away from "home" (the hub ?) for resurrection to work.

So they should still work ! So they should still can resurrect. They have those build ships so they should be able to build more !

2) it was said that cylon were millions (I suppose, skinjobs+centurions+old model
centurions)... Where are they ? The colony was to small to contains so much people. Maybe multiples colonies ?? Where are all the basestars ?(only a few were destroyed during the season 4)

And where are the old style basestars ? We've seen that old style cylon fighters (and centurions) are well in use in the colony...

3) If they still have resurrections ships, cylons can have time to reverse engineer
resurrection technology (and maybe make multiple "hub" so that there is no single point of failure this time ).

4) Only a few Leoben, six en eight were rebels (a few baseships if you remembr the episode). That does not mean that all of them ar rebel of were on the colony.


Logan Gawain said...

Excellent comments here, from everyone, pro and con.

I got to see the finale at the cast/crew screening, so I'm still a bit overwhelmed from seeing it there, and experiencing the emotions the BSG family as they themselves were saying goodbye to their show. It was pretty amazing.

But, yeah, like Proggrrl said above, I need to see it again before I can possibly be coherent.

I just want to thank you guys, the readers, because I really appreciate you coming here, I appreciate the intelligence and passion for the show that we all share in.

It's really been an honor to do this blog... I'll have more to say later on... but for now I just want to say thanks for visiting this site... and we'll always be here in one degree or another, because after all, people will keep talking about BSG for years to come...


Unknown said...

As an agnostic who feels Religion is an unnecessary albatross around our collective necks, I have to admit I am disappointed in the supernatural explanations for much of this show that came out of the finale. I would have much preferred some ambiguity that at least left me room to think in.

As much as I enjoyed the entire series because it was so well written, performed and produced, to be left with "Well, it's God" is very underwhelming.


When Starbuck vanished and they had the long shot of Lee Adama, over his head is a nice gravity wave.

General Boy said...

OK. I watched it again. I realize that I just can't speak intelligently about this episode and this entire series right now. I tried to do so above, but I really can't do it. I'm still wiped out by it.

Sycamore said...

I thought it was a beautiful finale.

Thank you SciFi, Moore and Eick, the writers, producers, actors, technicians, support crew, and anybody else who worked on this fantastic series. You all did a beautiful job, and have left a legacy for generations to debate in the years to come. I feel so privileged to have been able to watch this show. I have always said that BSG is the best writing on television, and that this series has highlighted all the potential that this medium possesses on multiple levels.
I've officially been in mourning since the finale aired last night.

Mike H. said...

Total topic hijack but who else caught the Star Wars reference where the cylon doctor says "I think you overestimate their chances," the same response that an imperial officer had to questions as to if he should get his ship ready to evacuate the death star.

Also, I thought it was a great ending. Parts I was kinda meh about, but all in all: great!

Hieu Le Bui said...

In case anyone missed it here's the Caprica preview that aired during the series finale

Eric H said...

There is much I loved about the finale, some small things that bugged me (NYC especially), but little I can talk about intelligently yet. At the very moment I'm deeply conflicted about whether the ending was optimistic or nihilistic for the characters. On the surface it's the former, but if I think very much about what life was actually going to be like for the arrivals in brutally short order, and how quickly their former lives would melt away.....Kara Thrace brought them to their end, all right. We saw the pretty side to it, with blue skies and verdant savanna, but their entire civilization was finished. No rebuilding their soceity with humans and cylons together, no nothing. Just a big period at the end of the story. That's a lot to absorb, and it strikes me as being very BSG.

Tez said...

One thing that stuck in my mind. When the "head" Six and "head" Baltar were talking in NYC, Baltar mentions how "he" doesn't like to be called "God"... why did I suddenly think back to how Cavil didn't like to be called John?

Unknown said...

I am astonished at how affected I have been today after watching the final episode of BSG. I feel as if I have lost a loved one. I am almost embarrassed to be this affected by a TV show and the loss of the characters I've come to admire. My loss probably is deepened by my fear for the future of our planet. Hopefully we can turn our fears into trust. I am grateful for BSG, sad but grateful.

Anonymous said...

Frak me that was intense! I just caught up with the finale and I'm quite literally lost for words. Epic, brilliant and wholly satisfying. RDM never fails to amaze me. Right now I feel so sad that it's now all finished. TV will never be the same without BSG, it was pure frakking genius. So say we all.

The Idea Frontier said...

Fraking amazing. Of course some people will argue over the ending...but that's the point. Battlestar has never spoon fed its audience and the end was no exception.

The finale took the whole series to another level. I don't think they'll be another series as epic as BSG again.

Thank you Ron and all the crew!

As a terrible plug...check out this sci fi t-shirt.

Anonymous said...

Well, to me it was exactly that, spoon feeding the audience and on the menu was tripe.

What I always loved about this show was the way it would present real issues always with balance, throwing the conclusions back upon the audience. If they wanted to remain in keeping with that, they should have left the "god" stuff ambiguous, in my opinion. Let the audience decide how much, if any, was divine intervention. To me it seemed that they wrote themselves into a corner and had no alternative other than "it was God's plan."

And then there's the voluntary hunter/gatherer idea. Not only is it unfeasible on purely practical grounds, but it completely negates the whole idea of the series. The products of our intellect (technology) must be tempered by other aspects of our humanity (compassion, emotional maturity, spirit). If we do this, we don't need to fear that the product of our minds will turn against us. By blowing off the real challenge presented by the cylon threat by turning their backs on technology as a whole, the colonists virtually guaranteed that the cycle will be perpetuated.


Anonymous said...

Fantastic finale. Bear's music had me grabbing the Alien soundtrack off the shelf because he came so close to using one of the primary cues from that movie. But the integration of new music with his earlier cues and Stu's from the original BSG was near perfect.

Anonymous said...

I was really bothered by the decision to suddenly give up all technology. It's not a decision I'd ever make, and if somebody like Lee Adama tried to make it for me, I'd probably end up shooting him.

One of my friends suggested that a better answer would have been to, say, ground the ships on Mars, and then end with a shot of them in the Martian sand, waiting to be discovered. I would've liked that better.

I was perfectly happy with Starbuck's ending. I figured it was going to be along those lines, and it didn't bother me at all.

I would've been unhappy with the ending of Part 3 if not for Starbuck's disappearance and the coda with Baltar and Six in the future/present. It left me wondering if they were somehow the same Baltar and Six from the distant future, having somehow ascended. Not sure how that would work, but I liked the idea of it.

Pete said...

It has been suggested that if you were to land on a technology free planet with your technology, then you would soon abandon it - your focus would be on attaining the fundamentals of life - warmth, shelter, food, water and since having hi tech spaceships etc doesn't provide any of that then you would soon leave them behind anyway. Your society would evolve back into a society based on fundamentals.

I liked the finale, but I haven't had time to absorb it. I guess the message is that the finale ends where it started (Part 1) 'All this has happened before and will happen again'. I did like the tying up of the head characters. Classy.

Neil Lavitt said...

"Kara Thrace brought them to their end, all right. We saw the pretty side to it, with blue skies and verdant savanna, but their entire civilization was finished. No rebuilding their soceity with humans and cylons together, no nothing. Just a big period at the end of the story. That's a lot to absorb, and it strikes me as being very BSG."

Seeds carried in the wind - space in this case. No purpose left other rebirth. Or like Salmon fighting upstream to spawn. Very natural. The tree takes time to grow and there will be many storms and fires along the way. I think it was very fitting and poignant.

I loved the scene of Hera that fed into the sweeping music and 150,000 years past. A return to innocence with no burdens.

Neil Lavitt said...

"By blowing off the real challenge presented by the cylon threat by turning their backs on technology as a whole, the colonists virtually guaranteed that the cycle will be perpetuated.'

What Cylon threat? Cavil was the Cylon threat. The Centurians that remained passed into the ether. The other 1's 4's and 5's would have died within 60 years and that would be that. The Centurians would have followed gods way, and as such would have seen the humans bereft of technology as no threat. They would have gone on to explore the galaxy.

The point is that by laying down the burdens that technology and progress has given us, we become purified and can focus on the necessities.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

T'Kir said: "One thing that stuck in my mind. When the "head" Six and "head" Baltar were talking in NYC, Baltar mentions how "he" doesn't like to be called "God"... why did I suddenly think back to how Cavil didn't like to be called John?"

I'd like to believe that the Head characters are some form of advanced machine race from a previous cycle.They actually said 'you know *it* doesnt like to be called that', to which I think theyre are referring to a Cavil like being, basically their leader.

The way the 5 saw head characters warning them of a disaster, and then how 6 in NYC talked about letting a system repeat long enough till it stops, seems like thats what the head characters were doing.

So yea; I believe the head characters are some advanced machine race from some previous incarnation of the cylce, and likely the Centurions we set free will evolve to be the same one day.


EdtheHead said...

A truly fantastic end to a fantastic series. I don't think we'll ever see anything like it again :(
I have a quick question - during his interview (in the flashbacks), Adama is asked if he is a Cylon, but I thought the humanoid cylons were only discovered after the attack? Were people aware that there may be humanoid cylons (via the first hybrid), was it a suspicion held at the time, or am I just overthinking things and it was simply a control question?

Anonymous said...

@ EdtheHead

I guess contro question only. It makes sense, since they needed to have his standard "yes" and "no" organism reactions. The question made Adama mad, cause he fought in First Cylon War, was a soldier, comitted sacrifices to beat enemy and now some guy is asking is he a Cylon.

Anonymous said...

It's a bit too much to take in with just a single viewing. I think the writing was beautiful and very true to the characters, but the "goddidit" explanation really bugged me. Over the course of the series the mystical elements of the story have mostly been resolved through rational, naturalistic explanations. I was genuinely surprised to find out that the show's "answer" to the puppetmaster's identity is a supernatural god. I don't see this as a case of deus ex as other commenters have claimed, since the possibility of a god pulling the strings was set up at the very outset of the show. I just didn't think RDM & co would go there in the end.

Did the show suddenly become explicity anti-sci/tech in the epilogue or was it merely a warning that we need to be sure we understand the implications of what we create? I hope the latter is the case. I wouldn't want a show as smart as BSG to have become, in its closing chapter of all places, another outpost for anti-science wingnuttery. I need to watch again, but I think I'll let a little time pass before I do so.

Still, one thing's for sure. Battlestar Galactica at its best has been one of smartest and boldest TV shows of my lifetime. For me, it sits alongside The Sopranos, The Wire, Six Feet Under and The West Wing as the best of modern American TV drama. BSG's writers, cast and crew should feel very proud of themselves.

fpt said...

It was lame, it was stupid, it wasn't epic at all and it was filled with plot holes (funny as that may be). And don't go telling me I'm dumb, I'm not open minded, or that I need to watch Stargate or some other crap show. It's my right as a loyal fan to be pissed, and you can't take that away for me, and you don't have to insult me or my intelligence. So please have some respect for those of us who feel betrayed, we have the right to be. End of line.

Edo said...

I enjoyed the finale very much, even if some of it requires major suspension of disbelief. Here are some thoughts I had:

1. When Head Baltar says about God that "It doesn't like being called that" a few thoughts popped into my mind. One is that it's interesting that God is gender-neutral (an It and not a He).

Secondly, it reminded me of the original hybrid from Razor, who said that his children think he's God. Maybe he wasn't destroyed after all.

Thirdly, He Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken - maybe not because the other Gods condemned him, but because he himself doesn't want humans to refer to him by name.

2. As a "devout atheist", I was a bit bothered by the "it's God" explanation at first. After some thought I came to the conclusion that it is still open to non-divine interpretation. It is still possible that the Lords of Kobol and the One True God were just technologically advanced aliens (or even humans).

3. So we're supposed to be the descendants of three separate groups that came together - Colonial humans, Cylons and the primitive humans of Earth 2.0? Interesting.

4. I understand that they wanted Hera to be Mitochondrial Eve, and that's why Galactica is set 150K years ago. Wouldn't it have made a bit more sense to bring them to the more recent past - like 6,000 years ago? If the Colonials are supposed to be the source of Greek and Roman mythology, then how did it disappear for more than 140,000 years and then reappear?

5. I wasn't crazy about Starbuck's disappearance. It could have been cool if they had shown that she somehow jumped back to Galactica to go into the Sun with Sam. (By the way, does this make our local star the Sun of Sam?)

6. I actually liked the last scene with the robots and "All Along the Watchtower".

Unknown said...

fpt - you're insulting ours. If you can't find happiness with THAT ending, I really feel sorry for you mate.I'll let you back to your Atlantis and Galactica 1980 boxsets then.

Edo said...

One more thing I forgot to mention: I didn't like the fact that Tyrol and especially Adama decided to each live in isolation. Adama has a son and a bromance with Tigh. Couldn't he build the cabin he promised Roslin near his surviving loved ones?

Anonymous said...


By the way, does this make our local star the Sun of Sam?

Thread, meet winner. :)

(4) is an interesting idea but they would have needed an explanation for Hera's importance that is equally as powerful as providing us with our mtDNA.

Unknown said...

Boy, that really was an emotional rollercoaster. When I told my girl friend that there were tears rolling over my eyes and that I had to make a break after 45 minutes of watching because of the intensity, she remarked well you do have emotions after all. Very well. [a note to the reader: people from northern Germany usually hide their emotions very well].

Right after the end of the show I was quite content with the ending. But like so often, when your blood is flooded with endorphines right after an event [chose sports or sex or a good meal], the emotional hangover came along with a sleepless night. That was weird. I think during that hangover, I was mostly discontent how the Kara / Lee relationship ended, because Lee was the character I could mostly identify with because of his beliefs in democracy in a times of crisis. And of course because Starbuck's frakking HOT. And besides Adama and the Chief, Lee was probably the lonliest character now. Kara pulling the "Jesus" card was too metaphysical for me. As were Chip Six and Chip Gaius.

But then I thought about what a huge impact the whole medichlorian stuff had on Star Wars, explaining the Force and rendering the saga immediately less adorable, because there now was a scientific explanation. Thank the gods, after all, this did not happen to BSG. Baltar's speech in the CIC was indeed pivotal. And if Starbuck hadn't disappeared, the questions surroundig her would have been more painful.

Finally, a big thank you to all the people involved in the series which gave me hours of joy.

Unknown said...

Although not originally conceived as such, BSG became a 9/11 parable,the mini-series airing just three months after the attacks.

The writers have used it over four seasons to explore theology, politics, torture, tribunals, individual character, group dynamics, difficult decisions and many other relevant issues.

Baltar says, in the CIC near the end of the battle, God's not on any one side. "God" is a force of nature, beyond good and evil. Good and evil, we created those. Want to break the cycle...?

The show, in its' final epic moments, is still a post 9/11 parable. I think the lingering message is how do WE break the cycle, not between man and technology (that was never really what the show was about). How do we break he cycle of violence among ourselves?

Gene said...

When Galactica reached the destroyed earth, were our continents shown? So, Starbuck crashes on this planet, dies and 2 months later she is resurrected? If BSG is set 150,000 yrs ago, why do the constellations look the same as today? they shouldn't. Or did the fleet somehow go back in time 150K yrs? And what about the line 'it has happened before, it will happen again'? Makes it sound like the BSG story is in some kind of time loop. And maybe Six and Baltar arent 'angels' as we know angels. Maybe they work for the other guy.

Edo said...


"Although not originally conceived as such, BSG became a 9/11 parable,the mini-series airing just three months after the attacks. "

Actually, it aired two years after 9/11. It was also a few months after the war in Iraq started.

Unknown said...

I stand corrected as to the timing issue. But my points are still valid.

Cassiopeia said...

I was initially disappointed in Battlestar Galactica's series finale. After reading numerous blogs from other disappointed viewers, it felt good knowing others were upset over the handling of the end of the series. My main issues concerned Starbuck's death/resurrection and God-is-the-culprit. I was so pissed off I deleted the Tivo. But I've had time to digest those issues and I'm actually feeling pretty good about the finale now. Now I'm seeing those issues more from the perspective of TOS.

Most of the TOS episodes were trite and sappy but a few were moving and the original concept brilliant. As a fan of TOS it always bothered me that the original series had no closure. After reading other posts and some thought, I realize that the Daybreak finale, was appropriate and I finally got my closure on the series.

As I was reading blogs on the finale, somebody mentioned that the reason others were so upset was because fans were stuck on Angel/God stereotypes. Thanks to whoever said that, as far as I'm concerned, well, hell yeah, that makes sense.

In TOS, a Higher Race gave aid to the humans and RDM also included that. Just because the colonists believed the aid they received was from Angels or God or the gods, doesn't mean that is their true identity. It's just what they believed and most of us bought it too. Maybe not. It fits that the Angels/God(s) were sentient beings and or future sentient machines of an advanced race who had broken the boundaries of space and time. All that happened before will happen again. End of line. Maybe even the far decedents of humans and cylons. Now they would have had a lot at stake in the survival of the colonists on earth. This advanced race had resurrection tech that brought Kara back from the dead just as the Beings of Light brought Starbuck back from the dead in TOS.

The colonists would have appeared to the early humans as Gods. Even though they sent the fleet into the sun, they still had raptors and I'm assuming tools and the ability to communicate. The colonists higher functioning would have awed early man. They would have appeared to them as Supreme Beings...Apollo...Hera...etc

Couldn't the same be said for the Angels and God(s) of colonists? The angel Baltar said something to Caprica in the end that stuck with me and crawled around in my head until it clicked. Baltar, the Angel said...'it doesn't like to be called that(God).' Maybe there was a good reason for that. Maybe It wasn't God.

I truly appreciated the touching tribute to the original series through including the original theme as the fleet heads into the sun. It's the only time I cried.

Anonymous said...

argentla said...

"I was perfectly happy with Starbuck's ending. I figured it was going to be along those lines, and it didn't bother me at all."

Its going to be one of those plot points that will eternally divide the fandom.

Myself, I liked it. It was logical given the trajectory of the character herself; admittedly I doubt anyone was seriously expecting or willing to believe she really was an 'angel'.

What I didn't like was how this left Lee standing there alone in that field. Its a heartbreaking sight, especially in that context.

It would have bearable if they'd exchanged a good-bye kiss or her saying "I'll be waiting for you."

As it is, I'm deep in the five stages of grief here and will be mourning for quite awhile.

ChrisHartwe77 said...

I could ask for almost nothing more. That truth is still able to come through in such a fallen world... it brings tears of joy to my eyes. Thank you Battlestar Galactica!

Wes said...

I know a lot of people are upset with kara's end and also the "god did it" conclusion. But keep in mind, it was left open for interpretation. Gaius said "it" doesn't like that name. If someone wants to find God and angels in BSG, they can. "It" is the divine creator of the universe and Kara was an angel. If others want to see "it" as a vastly more evolved intelligence, either organic or mechanical, then they can. I guess that would have made Kara a clone with all the memories of the original intact. When her job was done, "it" beamed her up. I think it was brilliant to leave it open and thus not dismiss either point of view, not alienate atheists or believers. I think more people would have been dissatisfied if a concrete answer have been given.
One word for the angels crowd though... she did have a halo and wings... check out the tatoo on her arm (coincidence or intended all along??)

General Boy said...

I'm back.

I watched parts of it again (without sobbing). This was a rough episode. The viewer had to deal with some pretty heavy things:

1. The end of the show itself;
2. The fates of the characters;
3. The text and the completion of the story-arc.

To have to say goodbye to the show itself was hard enough, but the viewer also had to make sense of the story and cope with the various paths each character takes. This is what left me speechless; I wonder if these dimensions of the episode had the same effect on other viewers. Simply put, it was a lot to absorb, and all of it wasn't pleasant. In a way, it was almost like dealing with the sudden death of a loved one.

There is so much to talk about this dense, rich show. I wonder if our moderators, as they had the time, could create threads similar to the one they created for "The Bird". Topics could include:

1. Kara's nature and her ascension
2. God, angels, and divine intervention
3. The choice of primitivism.

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

I had some grumbles about the end of the show, but I've changed my mind. Baltar's monologue in the Opera House beautifully recapitulates the theme of the series It distills the essence of the show and puts everything in perspective. It's also nicely placed at a crucial juncture in the story, as it prepares the viewer for the final act.

Anonymous said...

What Cylon threat? Cavil was the Cylon threat.

The cylon centurians rebelled way before Cavil was even created, and it was because they were treated inhumanely. The humans failed to realize when their creations had gained the sentience that required them to be treated like living beings.

Robert Cruickshank said...

I have to confess how surprised I am that people aren't willing to accept what General Boy called "the choice of primitivism." It may be because of my own familiarity with the subject as a historian - perhaps those who can't accept it just aren't aware that human beings have often expressed a desire to, or actually have chosen to, do exactly this.

And I don't blame people for not having that awareness - we live in an age in which our technological society is considered superior to the absence of it, where criticism of technology is dismissed as "Luddite" and where people living off the land are derided as "primitives".

The desire of human beings to blame their problems on their present surroundings - whether ideological, technological, or cultural - and move somewhere new and unspoiled to start over again in a kind of New Eden is VERY VERY STRONG in our history. Hell, it's one of the founding myths of the United States.

From the Amish Country to Walden Pond, from the hippie communes of the 1960s to the hardy pioneers of the 1800s who forsake Eastern civilization to "light out for the territories" in Mark Twain's phrase (and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn has a very similar ending to BSG), plenty of people have desired a tabula rasa - to get back in touch with their souls, as Lee put it, and start again with a more authentic lifestyle free from the corrupting influences that brought so much suffering.

And that's a point which all those people saying "I could never do that" are missing. If you asked any of those humans before the fall of the colonies where they could make the same choice, nobody would have said yes.

But they have been through a harrowing journey over the last four years in which they learned, repeatedly, that their technology not only won't save them, but that it has frequently destroyed them. Finding Old Earth as a nuclear ruin would have put a profound exclamation point on it.

And so when the find an Edenic place to live - where they don't have to be afraid, where they really can just spread out and explore, you can bet that the desire to give up the past ways and start anew will take over. If I were down there I'd have been in complete agreement with Lee.

One of my concerns with online discussion of TV shows is that too often people criticize the direction of a show because "I would never do that" or "it does not make sense to me." If everyone thought as you did, there would be no diversity of thought at all in the human race. Human beings see things differently. People make what I believe to be stupid and crazy decisions all the time, decisions I would never make.

But the point, especially in art and literature, isn't that they made a bad choice - rather it's to understand why the choice was made. And I think BSG has done that very well here.

Ultimately, good art is NOT about pleasing everyone. It's about making a profound artistic statement that leaves people feeling moved, even if people passionately disagree about what those feelings should be.

beeje11 said...

There's one thing I'm still unclear about. Maybe someone can answer it here. Why did the hybrid in Razor call Kara the herald of the apocalypse and the harbinger of death? He said they should not follow her. Did she really bring about an apocalypse? And who was he talking about, the humans or cylons? Any thoughts?

Logan Gawain said...

@Robert, perfectly stated. I couldn't agree with you more.

General Boy said...

@ Robert

Very well put. I was hoping for a spirited discussion on the subject, but you covered the "Pro" side very well. The choice may have seemed either startling or even implausible at first view. After some careful, thoughtful consideration, though, it makes perfect sense (At least to me. I'm interested in opposing arguments).

I won't restate your points. Again, great post, Robert. Thanks for sharing your insights.


Anonymous said...

@ Robert; I see I'm not the first one, but I need to praise your insightful comment. Brillianly noted, especially about the variety of human beings, difference between their choices and the way of presenting it in a good art. The exact thing I'm always trying to say to people questioning fictional characters actions and accusing they of nonsense. Thanks for sharing. Sorry for such lengthy talk, I alwyas do this...
What makes me wonder is the war over an involvement of God into the plot. I can understand (though I totally disagree) people hating Starbuck's ending, wilful "primitivism" decision, 150000-years jump, but why there is such a whining going on about the role of the religion? Following various blogs and forums, I guess it's even the hardest topic in many places. I really do not understand, why there is so big pression on explaining everything in scientific, technological way. I'm utterly respecting different opinions but I just can't see any, let's call it, psychological reason for it. Why people demand it so much? I'm not criticizing this view (altough, again, totally disagree with it), I'm asking seriously and I think it's an intresting topic.

I mean; wasn't there Macbeth? Wasn't there The Master and Margarita? And they are crap only beacuse the higher power involvement? One of the greatest foundation (among dramatic, deep character-based plotlines and stunning action) of this beautiful show was always the metaphisical and metaphorical side of it, was the symbolism. It was pretty obvious throughout the whole series, that this thing is really important for writers and they want follow this path. So why all the criticizm has woken up now?

Anonymous said...

Loved. It. Angels and all.

Unknown said...

Did anyone else notice that the rock that Adam sat next to during the final scene by Roslin's grave, looked a lot like ruins, perhaps of an ancient structure?

From the aerial view it looks a lot like ruins to me. I guess this would fit into the cyclical theme.

Also, what was with Baltar saying "silly me, silly me" at the end of the show? Was that a saying he said earlier in the season?

I realize he was tapping his glassesto show that they were the same ones that he wore during the "love" scene with Caprica.

Logan Gawain said...

@General Boy, we'll definitely do those theme post, probably the very ones you suggest. So, I'm looking forward to your participation in that.

I've been a little slow in recovering from Finale Amazement, but full normal blogging will resume shortly...

NBS SOS said...

@Robert who talks about humans' desire for primitivism. I am a fervent opponent of primitivism as being a solution for the human species, in reality, in the present.

It may be appropriate for this group of fictional characters (and especially considering their exhausting journey and fierce space-tastic battles) but that is very different from suggesting that it would solve the problems of this world.

Yes many of us yearn for and dream about a simpler, more peaceful and harmonious life. This need not equate with the abandonment of technology, science and innovation. This would condemn millions of the unluckiest of our species to death by starvation, exposure or disease.

The real demons that we have created for ourselves are a system that enables the oppression and domination of the many by the few. If this system could be rebuilt we could all experience the idyll glimpsed in those scenes of the the lush savannah - within our industrious lives. We could work less, and rest more. That is a real possiblity to strive for.

I have loved Battlestar Galactica - thanks to all involved for many hours of happiness. I found this finale much less allegorical than the show has been throuhgout, and the most clearly a piece of fictional (emotional) art.

Eric H said...

@ Robert, nicely put. That goes a long way toward helping me understand the characters' decision to completely start over. I am still not sure they SHOULD have, but wisely or otherwise, our characters elected to utterly end their civilization, hitting the giant 150,000-year reset button in the hope that humanity version 2.0 would turn out better. Talk about rolling the hard six. The enormity of that is still sinking in.

General Boy said...

This weekend, I've been thinking a lot about this silly book that I read when I was eight or so. My dad had a copy of it, and it completely captured my imagination - pseudoscience and all. I'm sure most of you are familiar with it.

I'm also thinking a lot about this book, too. I'm sure you are all doing the same as well.

Anonymous said...

I'm writing Lee (and myself) through the five stages. Its the only thing keeping me sane.

Well, that and remembering this is just a television show and I have a life outside of it.

Eric H said...

@ General Boy: Actually, for the sake of my sanity I am trying very hard NOT to think of that first book, ditto the last scene of the finale. The more I pretend like the whole thing stopped with Adama on the hilltop and the flash-forward simply isn't there, the better I feel about the ending :)

General Boy said...

@ Eric H.

Really? I liked the epilogue. It brings us to the beginning of a new cycle.

I'm not baiting you. I understand your misgivings. I'm looking forward to some special threads on these topics. I'm not quite ready for it yet (I'm in the "depression" stage" right now).

ACyclcUniverse said...

@Eric H

I'm sure it's been said here before, but I'm of the belief that BSG DID end with Adama at the hilltop.

The coda, the flashforward and the Watchtower Montage are all an epilogue, the proverbial question mark at the end of our beloved show.

In the future, I choose to think of the finale proper and it's coda as two separate entities, which makes me feel even more satisfied and ecstatic over the fimnal as a whole.

ACyclcUniverse said...


Aaaaaand 'fimnal' isn't a word.


radii said...

It seems the plot vs. characters debate has now morphed into the debate between whether the ending was good or not.

If anyone liked the ending, bully for them - Ron Moore layered on the treacly goodbyes and did some nifty connect-the-dots with the Opera House, but much the way religious believers self-righteously proclaim "you have to take it on faith" to non-believers there is a great deal of condescension all over the web by those who loved the finish toward those who didn't. It seems a mix of those wanting to believe and those seeking to drown out a view they don't like

An opinion is just that, an opinion - about a work of entertainment.

But the criticisms of the naysayers are quite legitimate: many many story threads were simply abandoned and the overarching theme was that "angels/god did it" which is none to satisfying for those scientifically-minded of us. The genre is, after all, science-fiction and at the end of the story we get a pat entirely superstitious explanation with some gross errors in logic underlying its motive.

Now I know the believers are already ready to pounce but you must consider this first: we who "nitpick" over the science should be thought of as people who speak a second language. We understand this language and when it is misspoken it rings in our ears and rattles our minds. Imagine you take a holiday to France to see Paris and you learn some French words and phrases without regard to the Parisian dialect and cultural inferences. To you you're speaking French and can be understood well enough to find the bathroom or hail a taxi or whathaveyou, but it is not any sort of true understanding of the language. You miss the richness of its beauty, its cultural idioms, are ignorant of correct pronounciation, and so on. It serves as a tool in a limited fashion for you to achieve certain objectives along with English words and gesturing and drawing or pointing to communicate. Well Ron Moore used science as a tool in his creative arsenal to tell this story of the reimagined Battlestar Galactica but as the course of the series progressed it became clear that he used it bluntly, crudely, without regard to its importance but merely as a prop until he could on-the-fly construct a metaphysical, superstition-based construct for his finale to the story that served his practical wrote-myself-into-a-corner problems.

Different people have different perspectives and enjoyed different aspects of the show, but the French-speakers - those science-minded among us - were sorely let down. Further, those who cherish good storytelling and understand it, were also let down by an ending which bailed on its biggests tasks.

Eric H said...

@ GB: No worries, I know you're good people. I too am in the whole depression thing, coming to grips with the finality of the ending (read my posts above), conflated with loss about the show itself being over. So I may in time come around on the whole "they are our ancestors and we're the new cycle thing" but at the very moment it just rings too goofy Chariots of the Gods for me, and not in the fun way. But this personal fly in the ointment in no way destroys the wonderful experience of the show as a whole, and I am happy that so many people think the whole Eve thing is cool and inspiring (I really am) even as I can't even put it enough in the realm of "well, it COULD have happened" to adequately suspend disbelief and find it satisfying as a story.

But you know, I ended up being perfectly fine with all the mysteries left unanswered, with all the "god did it" stuff, and even Starbuck's startling resolution...because the finale let me say goodbye to these wonderful characters authentically.

@ACyclicUniverse: I like your thinking. It's helpful.

General Boy said...

Let me just put this out here:

Aren't the head-characters just the Seraphs from the original series in a different wrapping?

Does the "God" in this series need to be the Creator-of-the-Universe Western diety to whom we all associate this name? Can't this god simply represent a much more scientifically advanced ancestor of humanity (i.e., pre-Kobol) who is still trying to break the cycle of violence, perhaps first started by his race? After all, he doesn't even like the name God ;-)

Many of you have expressed irritation about some implied condescension in the positive comments about the end from some of those who have posted here. I hope I haven't made any comments with such overtones. I've grown to like the ending very much, but I might change my mind. The show is complicated.

Let me say, though, my personal beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion. The work either stands on its own or it does not. As with all things that appear supernatural, there is usually a natural explanation for all of them. RDM et al obviously left this religious dimension of the show open to interpretation.

We all knew from the beginning of the series that an unseen force played a role in the lives and events of these characters. Sure, we were not certain of the magnitude of this force, but we knew it was there. The show has always been steeped in the mystical and the seemingly supernatural. The writers followed through on a committment to that theme, and to demure from that theme in the end would simply be inconsistent.

Again, I think Baltar's monologue in the CIC is brilliant. In short, he says that they all know something greater than themselves has been at work all along. You can call it what you like, but it is there, and it is undeniable.

Was this really so surprising? This is even less religious in tone than the original series. This so-called god is a creator of human life across the galaxy. At first, this bothered me. After thinking on it, though, I realized that I had already seen the creation of life on a smaller scale on the show. Is it so hard to conceive, then, that there is a being or race of beings that can create human life on a remote planet? No, not really.

Yes, much is left to interpretation and speculation. Many questions were not directly answered. I appreciate the criticisms about the show, but I haven't seen anyone post alternatives. What would be more satisfying? I'm not being derisive, mind you. I had the same misgivings at first. What do critics here believe the ending lacked and what should have been put in its place?

Thanks for listening,


Unknown said...

Various thoughts...

I found it terribly sad, Lee being abandoned yet again. That smart, sexy, passionate and idealistic man, has spent his whole life being abandoned. Ugh.

I am very grateful to the writers for Sam's single line, that he would see Kara on the other side.

Odd that Ellen finally gets what she wants - to be alone with her husband. Interesting that Bill gives her that much in the end.

Looking back over the entire show, I think Ron & crew did a brilliant job of describing good men... but I think that they are a bit ignorant about women. Nicki Clyne touches on this in the video-blogs, that the seasons of shows lacked real interaction between women characters, and an understanding of how women relate.

And from that -- I am utterly unsurprised at Kara's end, but also grieved. She transcended from whore straight into virgin; she spent all her years as a destiny... I think Kara deserved to have a chance to live. And while I agree that keeping her material (physical) would have maintained some of the confusions of the show, I think that her death had as much to do with an inability of the writers to see her mature into womanhood, normalcy, and life, as it did with wrapping up the mystery.

Living can be a mystery too.

It is interesting to me that in the Daybreak finale, women save the day. (Well, women and Baltar.) Boomer returned Hera to Athena. Racetrack obliterated the colony (even if dead - smart woman). And Kara, of course, brings everyone to the beginning of life.

And, all three of these heroines die. Roslin dies. The men who loved most, except Helo, are bereft, or in the case of Sam, dead.

How much would have changed had Dualla lived? I think we lost more there than we knew at the time.

I think that Ron & company did some fantastic things in BSG with reimagining relationships and gender roles, and amazed us all with their lack of trepidation in plunging into the mysteries of existence. Gods know that BSG has broken many old rules, and that all of us writers have new opportunities, thanks to the work of this team.

I am deeply grateful to Ron that he ended the story with hope. With light, flowing grass, and soil. His story captivated my imagination, and I dearly needed it to conclude in faith for life... not cynicism, not nihilism.

And all that said, I think I am glad it is over too - because he HAS broken those boundaries, and now we can go out and explore new lands...

And this time, may there be a femininity that remains. Matures. Nurses life. Is herself nursed. And carries on, fertile imagination.

Ken said...

Well its finally over...
What a ride and a big thanks to those involved!!!

I loved the show but hated the ending as well as most of the last episodes. I missed D'Anna and was dissapointed that she was left behind on the original Earth.

Remember on New Caprica when she (D'Anna) believed how important Hera was. And now she just abandoned the whole thing?!!!

Galactica should have been destroyed easily by the colony's defence batteries!!! The defence batteries couldn't destroy a serverly structurely impaired battlestar!

Also why did the humans absail down from galactica when the cylon robots seem to disembark normally?! I thought the size scaling of the front of the battlestar was all wrong. The ship looked tiny as the humans opened the magic hatch to enter the colony.

How did the battlestar reverse out of the colony??? There are no engines at the front? Surely ramming the colony would have broken galacticas spine?!!

Also there a other base stars still out there. Remember how the recon raptor idntified the safe jump entry point. They said that a couple of base stars jumped in! So what happened to them?

When Galactica jumped out of the battle and its "back broke" surely the ship should have been venting oxygen/fuel etc everywhere!!!! Yet everyone is fine?!

And the idea of ditching all the technology is frankly stupid!! These people have been living on space ships for years. Do they know the first thing about hunting / farming or building fires etc. What tools are they going to use to build their homes? They have no knowledge of bush craft etc.. No medicine too. They will be exposed to loads of new pathogens/ viruses etc. Expect most of them to die!

Oh well!! Thanks anyway!!

Anonymous said...

@ radii about your religion/science regrets:
You put your point very well and I'm able to partly agree with you; I guess mostly because you sound pretty rationable, intelligent and open-minded, unlike many critics I've encountered in last two days. :)

Even though I like your science/french comparision, I'm rather far from generalize. I do define myself as a mathematicaly-driven, scientific mind and still, I don't feel betrayed by non-technical ending. You present us the "science-fiction" argument, which (you state) obligate the show to explaine things in this particular way and run away from supernatural solutions. I disagree. Genres are artificial, quoting Gaius "we created them". And good art has always exeeded these borders. Actually, on the very begining of the art, there were no borders and no genres, mind you. That's why sticking to those affected definitions sounds quite orthodox to me. I do appriciate diffrent opinions but I really don't like any prejudice against that or another solution, only because it doesn't fit our rigid definitions of what that or another genre should be.

Another thing is (I'm gonna repeat myself, I'm afraid) that BSG from the very first episode has been clearly stating, that religious and metaphysic stuff is playing very important role in the plot and writers are not going to leave it. I really loved this vision (as well as I loved another things in the series, ofc) and enjoyed it throughout all sesons, so I haven't been disapointed at all by the ending. In fact, I had been anticipating that kind of soultion and was pretty ready for it.

At the end, I'd like to again express my suprise that people dislike religious accents in the show, just because they are religious and not scientific. It is rejecting a thing not because of what it is but because of what it is not. Strange.

Stressing the matter for one more time - good art doesn't fit preset genres, it exceeds it. And one thing (along with many others) that RDM should be praised for is breaking the sci-fi borders and defining it anew.

Alejandro Barragan said...

Just one question:

Why did´t they go back to New Caprica? Was it also radioctive? Was it nuked?
They didn´t need to find earth, they could settle in New Caprica...

Anonymous said...

@ Alejandro:

New Caprica was grey, windy, cloudy, poor planet, coverd with gravel and sand. Earth - green, rich with fauna, flora, friendly climate and just pretty. Galactica wasnt able to jump, they would have to pack all the people on remaining ships, retrack the path to NC, spend time travelling there. They had really bad memories from living there. What for?

Or, maybe, you mean they even shouldn't have been looking for Earth and just came back on NC... But, when? Before the Hera rescue mission? There was a lively Cylon thread all the time. Cavil needed to be defeated before Colonials could think about settlement.

Unknown said...

Yes, BSG has dealt with religion from the beginning, that is obvious.

But it has mirrored real-life in that there were believers, doubters and non-believers. Every time there was a prophecy realized there was more than enough room to see coincidence and rational, natural plausibility.

But they took that away in the last five or so minutes of the show. Up until then, there was still room for the doubters and non-believers, but they took that away and made a serious religious statement, that "God" orchestrated the whole thing.

My ghast is flabbered.

I can't watch Caprica now. I can't support evangelical proselytizing.

And it was a choice. They could have done many things instead of making a religious statement with the last five minutes but they CHOSE to. They could have taken a page from "Man From Earth" and shown Tigh and/or Ellen (or one of the other Cylons who made it to the 21st century) teaching in a classroom about the discovery of "Eve". They could have done a lot of things.

But they chose to make a statement about the existence of "God" (and not a proposal) and that makes the entire journey that was a great show very much not worthwhile for me.

And really disappointed at the message this sends.

rob said...

@ ken

If you look at a side/front picture of galactica, the front tip is only a few stories high (

Regarding D'Anna (and Dee), the people of the colonial and rebel fleets had lost everything. Their home, society family, identity, way of life.
Their existence was gloomy, depressing and meaningless. They could have all given up at this, but there was one, last, tiny scrap of hope given to them - a dream called Earth.
They barely hung on to this stubborn hope for the long years and months, but when they thought the miracle had been realised, they surrendered to it, only to have it completely torn away from them after reaching the surface.

That was it for some of them. They couldn't do it again. This was all summed up in the pained expression on the admirals face as he searched for the energy within himself to announce to the fleet they would be chasing the 13th tribes new new home.

They had barely managed stay with the hope Earth existed, and the chances of finding another planet were just too small. Where was Hera going to live?
I think it's completely realistic they would end their own lives after that.

As for whether the colony defenses/collision should have destroyed Galactica:

1) They basically did.
2) Tigh agreed "she can't take much of this".
3) They deactivated the defenses just in time?
4) Even Adama conceded it was likely a one way mission.
5) That was the point - Galactica was the main character of the show, and she gave them that little extra bit of fight as one last gift.

Regarding loss of atmosphere after Galactia's last jump, presumably all her hatches were closed, so atmosphere was lost in a limited number of compartments when her hull twisted, but I agree somewhat.

The baseships may have all been called back in to defend the colony, and ultimately gone into the singularity with it. RDM admitted too much was cut in that sequence to clearly depict the events.

I have no strong argument on your other points.

Unknown said...

h -

If it helps, I'm not convinced that Ron & co were making a definitive statement about the presence of "God" in a religious sense. I think that Head-Six and Head-Baltar acknowledged to Caprica and Baltar that someone(s) was mucking with things. But I didn't get the sense from that final scene that the entity(ies) mucking with them was necessarily "God", or that H-S and H-B were any more enlightened than the rest of us.

I would say that the "spirit" and soul of the show rested with Lee and Kara and Sam and Laura. And they each had their own metaphysical interactions. Everyone's was different. Perhaps Ron & co were alleging the possibility of a number of agents - spirits, energies, etc. - each of them differently experienced and perceptive... but I really don't think that H-B and H-S had the definitive word on anything except their own vision.

H-B clearly says that their machinator does NOT like to be called God. Now, if we've stripped away the creation of life from what defines "God" -- which within this series, its cylons force us to do -- then what are gods? Someone engineering things to happen? Someone who knows more than you do? I highly doubt that their God is the cosmic life energy that infused Earth at the end... although H-S/H-B's god might be someone who could physically re-engineer or re-plant a population/planet.

If we humans can clone a species, does that make us gods? If we could put life on a planet (think Genesis from Star Trek, slowed down to reality), would that make us gods? Creators, sure. Engineers. But gods?

I am somewhat comforted that H-B's "god" knows that just because it can make things happen, isn't enough for it to ascend to godliness. Whatever that might be. :) Cheers, Maia

rob said...

@ Alejandro:

New Caprica is habitable, but Kobol is better. The only apparent reason they couldn't occupy Kobol when they encountered it was the overpowering enemy force was monitoring it.

By present day, perhaps the radiation levels on Old Earth, Caprica and the other eleven colonies would also have reached safe levels. But by tying the show into our own world, it gives us a message to tread carefully as we plot our future. We don't want that message to be "if we frak this planet up there's always more to go around". :D

WGA Member said...

I want to weigh in on the side of those who were very disappointed in the way this series ended. The first two seasons and the start of season three was brilliant. Since then, the show has had moments of brilliance, but mostly a lot of pretentious dabbling in too many topics, none of them well.

By the end of the show, the writers had completely abandoned the series original genius - a consideration of the aftermath of the 9/11 experience on a post-religious/decadent society. There were a lot of claims that the show was "all about what it means to be human," but that too was a theme that was bandied about much more in interviews than in the actual substance of the episodes.

Then, RDM et al. was everywhere saying that THE REAL point of the show was the characters. Well then, the last season has to be reckoned only a moderate success as the characeters almost all came away from their five year nightmare without having learned anything too much. Kara was flung around episode to episode in season four from peace to insanity, almost as though the writers weren't reading each other's scripts. Lee was completely dumped. Ellen, a character that had been cut in Season 3 was brought back and suddenly propped up to have importance, but none of us in the audience ever cared. The Final Five had little to do but stand around listening to occasional backstory monologuing.

The "theology"/mysticism of the show was not in the end profound. It was just kind of silly and obvious. There was nothing thoughtful concluded about being human. It seemed to me a classic case of writers biting off way more philosophically then they could chew.

I didn't cry in the last episode, because they didn't really kill off anybody in a poignant way. Most everybody survived and then, we are told, will just fade away. Not dramatic writing at all.

I am grateful to the show for the first couple seasons or so. I will forever be ambivalent at how it ended because of the lack of excellence in the story. It is another example of how in television writers lose control of great shows once they all start getting other jobs based on how great their show is.

rob said...

Barbara, I used to feel the same way (season 2 is still my favourite). But over time I came to accept the remainder as not bad, but different. The series *is* more character driven in its second half. I know more than one fan who stopped watching when the momentum dropped off after Exodus part II. Anyway I wanted to neither agree or disagree but just say good on you for having the guts to express this opinion.

Anonymous said...

I'm disturbed at the complaints about the religious aspects/implications of the Finale.

The entire series had instruments at work involving a divine, omnipotent/omniscient power, prophecy, 'angels,' and evidence of a 'divine plan' for the whole show.

All of a sudden, at the Finale, people go off the deep end, because RDM and Galactica "went religious?" What show have you all been watching?

And for final clarity - "God was behind it all" is not a 'dues ex machina' as some are claiming. If the entire series had never mentioned a god, then we had the exact same Finale, then that would be an accurate description.

To anyone who paid attention to the show, it was a perfect ending, Starbuck and all.

Justin Giampaoli said...

@ Robert - nice point about "good art not about pleasing everyone." I actually work in a musuem and we have a philosophy that good art pieces are the ones you actually struggle with at first, not even sure if you like them, but you THINK about them, they grow on you - good art is intellectually o emotionally provocative, and I think BSG fits that bill nicely, whether you're pro or con a specific point, an opinion has been illicited.

A few misc. thoughts...

1) Does anyone have a theory on why Cavil shoots himself when the Resurrection Tech Transfer goes south?

2) It really bothers me that so many people have an issue with Kara being an "angel" (for lack of a better term). Seems they're getting bungled up with their pro-conceived notions about how an angel would act. As Baltar said, somethings require a "leap of faith." Her corporeal guiding form is no less plausible than a functional FTL drive.

3) I thought the Chief strangling Tory was a nice touch. It's actually through his humanity that things change. He commits one of the (human) Seven Deadly Sins, Wrath, kills Tory, which stops the Resurrection Transfer, which makes Cavil freak out, which effectively breaks the cycle. For me, a lot of the narrative really comes down to this moment.

4) Lastly, I really felt like Earth became Heaven for the charactrs. Not a literal heaven (as in they all died during Galactica's last jump), but a figurative one where they can finally be at at peace. There's sort of a cycle to this, like in the Colonies was their life, Galactica was purgatory, and now they can finally rest on Earth - which as Bill points out is not a place necessarily, but an idea, a dream.

Unknown said...

@ Maia-

You raise some good points and I have to admit my Evolutionary Biologist girlfriend who is an atheist abhors it when I make the same arguments when we are discussing the concept of a Creator. I am agnostic because, though I don't believe in any sort of benevolent or malevolent omnipotent and omniscient being who gives a hoot what we do, I can not discount the possibility of something much more intelligent out there that had a hand in creating the universe (or starting the Big Bang).

Thanks for the perspective though my girlfriend is going to hate it. I've only recently introduced her to the show (she loves it of course) and she is two shows shy of completing Season 3.

The thing I'm not fond of, however, is the message. People like Hermicuda1982 (and I'm really not trying to pick on you Hermicuda) see the show and think, duh, it's an omniscient/omnipotent being.

It's a dangerous message and BSG could have gone the route of giving us plausible and imaginative explanations for seemingly supernatural phenomena.

Anyway, great show. I've only ever paid attention to two, BSG and the West Wing. Loved every second of it, until the very end.

But thanks again Maia. I'll have to think about what you said.

Unknown said...


My theory on Cavil was that he recognized, with Shakesperian realization, that his philosophy was ultimately flawed when he had the impulse to kill himself. Suicide is not part of a robots make-up, but is a intrinsically human ability/behavior. He said "Oh, Frak" in resignation that he was ultimately more human than he wanted to admit and then killed himself rather than be killed by the humans he hated.

I guess it is very ironic that his last act was a purely human one. I though this was ingenuius on the writers of the show to have Cavil's act be the ultimate act of contradiction in life spent in hypocrisy.

Unknown said...

I've been surfing this site for what seems like years now. Battlestar Galactica has been, and is, and perhaps always will be the best show on television. I thought I would add to the conversation, as something tells me this thread will keep going for awhile. So let's talk about this amazing finale. Here's a few of my thoughts:

-Starbuck as an angel. AWESOME. She lived a hellish life, only to die and be reborn, in order to lead the people to a new life in *heaven* (Earth).

-I was hoping BSG would end in the past, and tie into our present. Ron Moore did this perfectly, because it gives us something to relate to, to wonder. Every time we hear "All Along the Watchtower" what are we gonna think?

-Did you see the special effects? How about Bear's music? I'm not one to acronize, but OMG.

-Tyrol strangling Tory with his bare hands. YES. It would figure that a 2,000 year old Cylon would do the most HUMAN thing possible. That one was for you Cally.

-Cavil shooting himself? It's fitting for the ultimate atheist to commit the ultimate act of faithlessness. Not out of grief, pain or misery, but simply because he couldn't stand to exist in what was quickly starting to appear as a CREATED universe.

-Baltar's speech in the CIC. The converted atheist trying to explain to the hardened atheist the facts of existence. With the ultimate outcome leading to one to live happily ever after, and another to put a gun in his mouth.

This finale was unbelievable. It was amazing. It was perfect. From the previous posts, it would appear that many viewers were hoping for an end all explanation. It saddens me that so many people were hoping Ron Moore would somehow explain away the God that had been driving the show from the beginning. Come on now, God forbid that a television show gives us a slight hint that in fact there might be something more to this world than meets the eye.

Overall, like the entire show, BSG's finale was beautiful, touching, and transcendent. It goes beyond words, beyond pictures, beyond feelings. For me, Battlestar Galactica communicates in so many words, exactly what Anders wanted: "to experience creation's perfection."

Matt said...

I'm just wondering about poor DeAnna. Think someone went and picked her up on Earth 1.0?

Great ending. While I agree that Moore does a great job with just about everything he's given, I'm still bitter about him using so much reused battle footage in the DS9 finale. It was even footage from earlier in teh same season. Unacceptable.

Great redemption though.

Unknown said...


1.) In this interview ( ), RDM explains that Dean Stockwell suggested shooting himself versus being thrown off a railing and falling to his death.

Unknown said...

I have a few things to say but I'm not in eloquent mode so bear with me.

The "It" that Gaius spoke of could be:

God in any modern day representation (God, Allah, Yahweh...)
Fate / Destiny
The general processes of the universe, time, etc. (evolution?)

Maybe humanity as the colonials knew and as we know doesn't evolve as much physically at this point in its maturity, as it does internally - emotionally, spiritually, fundamentally.

Perhaps the evolution of human beings is this process, this cycle, this series of beginnings and endings.

WGA Member said...

Can anybody tell me why Starbuck had to die in the first place? The whole Maelstrom episode set up that she was being led to let go presumably so she could do something.

But it seems that in the end, the only thing she had to do was come back. She had learned the piano/earth formula as a little girl, so she didn't need to die to be able to save the fleet that way.

Seems like just another character mess up, like the way we were led to think she and Lee were in love for five years only to have the relationship come to nothing.

Wes said...

Why should Ron Moore give us all the answers? Many good elements of fiction come from good, old Romantic notions (dreams, fantasy, double meanings, unclear ends and unanswered questions, longing for the unknown, even the supernatural, whatever you want that to be).

Rationalists would like a neat, scientific explanation, but maybe a Romantic at heart, Moore gives us the notion that there may be some things we can never answer or that are simply above our limited capacity for understanding.

I do not think he necessarily was pushing a religious explanation to the whole thing.

Gaius pointed out, "it" doesn't even like that name. We are clearly left with a question as to what it is. Whatever it is, neither human nor Cylon minds could fully understand its nature.

So they put it in terms they could understand. Cylons called it God. They wanted to see a divine plan. Leoben referred to angels. If there are viewers that want to see it that way, they are free to do so.

Others who want a scientific, answer can reason that "it" is a superior, highly evolved, exraterrestiral intelligence, possibly even artificial intelligence, that can manipulate lower life forms like puppets. That idea has come up over and over again in science fiction (2001, Q in Star Trek, the force, there are too many to cite). I think a notable difference here though, is that so many fans had begun to think of BSG as a naturalistic, human drama,with no aliens and ray guns, that something so different was a shock.

For those who are so disappointed after investing so much into this show, just consider it might not be so bad that everything was not neatly tied up in the end. Life can be that way, and we are left scratching our head. Don't they say art imitates life. If you still hate the ending, try to concentrate on how awesome the experience on the whole has been! No matter what had happened last Friday, I would still have always said this was the best TV show ever.

Anonymous said...

Why in (cough) god's name did they not think of this:

anyone remember in the series 1 finale podcast, RDM said they were toying with having Dirk Benedict appearing in the opera house (to 6 and baltar, if i remember correctly), saying, "Hi, I'm God"?

well, i do at least! Seeing that they werent afraid to reuse the orig series theme, instead of RDM's jarring cameo, how much cooler would it have been to have had Dirk Benedict reading the Nation Geographic?

Unknown said...

I quite liked Robert Cruikshanks' comments, although primitivists generally make me want to puke. It does make sense that the rag tag fleet would find "going native" an attractive proposition after what they've been through. It's also the easiest way to make the 150,000-year jump work from a story perspective.

None of this changes the fact that it makes me angry. The overall plotline of the show can now be expressed as follows: an advanced race of humans create Cylons; the Cylons revolt; after an initial truce the Cylons kill almost everyone; the surviving 39,000 humans subsequently die after a series of adventures and are not remembered by anyone.

They don't create a more informed society. In fact, they actively chose to not take advantage of the knowledge and experience they've gained in any way.

And RDM says the ending isn't nihilistic! Hah! It's only one shade less nihilistic than if they'd all died in space. One child in the fleet became the mitochondrial Eve for all of us. So what? Since there already were natives on the planet, we didn't need Hera and the others to come here to create us.

The fact that the ending makes me angry doesn't change the fact that the series finale was very good. It was well-written, had the best action sequence of any episode, and let us say goodbye to these wonderful characters. Add me to the ranks of people who cried when the ships flew into the sun to the original series theme--the Old Girl literally flying into the sunset was absolute perfection.

radii said...

It seems to me that the character partisans are quite satisfied with the finale and will never be bothered by the glaring and numerous plot-holes. That's okay - take away from it what you will.

We plot people cannot reconcile the contradictions, omissions, cop-outs, dangling story threads and be satisfied with the Kumbaya ending served to us.

What is frustrating for us is that we were teased with such promise from the beginning and there were outlines of brilliance and hints of something special.

I think I have the perfect example to explain:

We are shown and told that the skinjob Cylons can resurrect and that they can access a reservoir of data that consists of the common memories of their model line.

We see the Hybrids living in their tubs of special goo as the sentient central processing units of the Base Ships. We see the special goo (a bit slimier) in the resurrections tanks. We are told that they can exist iteration after iteration, and we know that the skinjob models have been around at least two to three decades.

So through high style production design and set-dressing, cool lighting effects and some good visual effects, as well as sound effects and music, a mood was created that added to the sense of mystery about all this. We saw them put their hands on the interface panels with the liquid and gain knowledge and communicate through them. The lighted red panels also seem to be Matrix-like data streams, as well as the projected light symbols.

We are shown and told as D'Anna repeats suicides so she can resurrect - and in that space between death and resurrection see more pieces of the puzzle of the mystery of the Final Five and that there are answers to be had. When she finally does see them in the amazing coincidence of a supernova illuminating a crystal in the Temple of Five/Temple of Hopes and sending a beam of light down onto the mandala symbol she dies from the experience as her eyes go grey but she says, high with spiritual feeling, "so beautiful, so beautiful." We as the audience we waiting to see this great beauty, this great truth. And the "truth of the Opera House" turned out to be certain people standing in the right place at the right time so a deal could be struck between Cavil and the rest of them - but the deal went south because Tyrol kills Tory for murdering a human girl he didn't really love.

This is the example: Not long after learning he is a Cylon Anders is part of the boarding party on the damaged rebel Base Ship and longs to put his hand on one of those interface panels. How we as the audience longed for him to do it. What would happen? Would the Base Ship and Hybrid instantly recognize him? Would it change the equation instantly? It was a colossal tease. A tease that was never realized.

There was always something mystical about the goo - in resurrection it played the role of the birth canal and emergence into the light (and in No Exit we finally saw the light [the red tunnel effect] from Ellen's POV as she awoke).

For those of us that like the science and design elements of our science fiction those interface panels, the colors, the lights, how it works, were nagging questions. Sam putting his hand on the damaged Base Ship panel would have answered a lot of those questions.

Instead what we got was a diminished version - the mystery made mundane.

I have noticed that at almost every turn in the show Moore has chosen to diminish that which seemed grand or mysterious. Romo was this great, intriguing character who was potentially completely amoral - or perhaps a Diogenes-like self-styled judge of men and after his appearance as Baltar's lawyer the audience was left sort of breathless, like who was that? ... then they brought him back to satisfy fan demand, I guess, and had his character behave in a way that did not comport with what we'd seen before. He was weaker, unstable, not the confident, controlled man we knew previously. And by the finale, when he was trotted in front of the audience like a popular pole-dancer and we were told he was now "president" the diminishment was complete. His character had been completely emasculated and all mystery about him gone.

The Hybridization of Anders was obvious and was not very satisfying. Did the other Cylons bring some special goo over or could any liquid do? Didn't he start spouting Hybridspeak rather suddenly after being hooked up to Galactica? There was zero transition between his "word salad" from his head injury and Hybridspeak. The Base Ships were themselves Cylon and the Hybrid a part of a living thing. The Galactica was man-made contstruct with various machine parts.

The point? When Sam's tank is brought up to the upper deck of the C&C and is networked to control Galactica and, later, when the other Final Fivers put their hands into the liquid goo to download resurrection technology to Cavil as part of their deal which Hera's Opera House journey to C&C somehow facilitated we have no more understanding of how it works. So the liquid is the information medium? Or is it merely a conduit? Only Ellen seems to remember anything of significance from their earlier lives - including resurrection technology, so touching the water unleashes those memories? Gee, if that's the case wouldn't it have been nice to see Sam touch the water in that previous ep and experience some memories? This is what I'm talking about with missed opportunities and dangling threads. Better writing would have done something like this and made more whole the meaning of the liquid and the lights and what the Cylon skinjobs experience when they interface with it and how they percieve their former lives and their relationship to the memories of other models in their line.

Sorry the post got so long.

Justin Giampaoli said...

Call me anal, but it's not "C&C," it's CIC - Combat Information Center. Hard to engage in your points seriously if you're not even getting the acronyms correct.

radii said...


C&C (Command and Control) is pretty much interchangeable with CIC - it could be "bridge" as in Star Trek TOS, or Command Deck, whatever - a very trivial point ... we all know what we're talking about

Anonymous said...

Just some more random thoughts coming to me permanently:

1) Galen breaking Tory's neck was just something. I really like this solution. Firstly, she had fully deserved it for being such a bitchy Ms. So Important. Moreover, what's a bit of paradox, Chief finally feeled satisfied and his lived was fulfiled. I mean, he stopped looking for anything, stopped being lost and anxious. Actually, he seemed happy after comitting this, which I can completly understand. Face it, no one liked Tory. What's more, this solution has presented us some very important thought; it's a common thing that great universe-sized, civilizations-sized issues can be easily destroyed by some peronal struggles. And we should be aware of it. Well, at least I experienced it this way.

2) After three days of considering various aspects of how the show has ended and endlessly thiniking over every single plot solution, I finally became able to appreciate the episode as an entirety and enjoy each scene. Of course rewatching all thing few times undoubtedly helped. :) For example - Tigh checking all teams before the battle - holy gods, it set such an tension, I was frakkin' shaking and sweating. It's funny I realised it only now. Or - Adama and Tigh commanding the attack in the biggest mess, each of them coverd with rubble, shouting orders through wireless - frak me, I'm totally in love with this shot. Cylons offensive forces marching Galactica halls. "Our" Centurion brining "their" one down on his knees and offering him a straight hand-head shot. I know those are details, nevertheless with whole Internets shaking in war on how BSG has ended, I decided to just enjoy the Daybreak eventually in purest way - appreciating not only the very content but form and action as well. :)

Unknown said...

I must admit the finale has left me feeling a little numb and empty. Not with any sense of dissatisfaction, though there are still a lot of questions buzzing around my head, but more from sense of sadness that the ride has ended. On a more positive note it has prompted me seek out more information about human evolution, the debate of how religion and science can co-exist and complement each other and just basic wonder in what lies above us...just what Sci-Fi is supposed be, thought provoking.

rob said...
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rob said...
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rob said...


"So what? Since there already were natives on the planet, we didn't need Hera and the others to come here to create us."

I think the idea was that the fleet gave them the power of language etc and triggered a period of (not necessarily technological) progression.

I am not angry at the loss of technology. I am not even angry about religious explanations, because I have no problem as an atheist believing god to be real within a fictional universe.

But as believer that contributing to public knowledge is of the few things that makes our lives meaningful in the long term, I share your frustration at the concept that loss of knowledge and experience can ever be a good thing, especially if they are looking to stop the cycle which has happened at least twice because they weren't warned in time!!! arg!

Then the show goes on to suggest it wont happen again just because of freak chance? what? how about because we will be smart and make the right choices? :)

Anonymous said...